DEC Unveils New Deer Management Plan

[G-Man]

2 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

they discuss it?  lol.  It will be attached to something that has nothing to do with hunting.  It will pass as long as one of the committee members has the ok to attach it to something from the party lead or committee lead.  Which it will be put in as a new management plan.  Only reason it didnt make it out of committee is because not a single person cared if this passed or not so no one pushed it.  If it is part of the state plan it flies by. 

That was tried attached to budget 4 years ago and was vetoed by coumo then was left out of it.. in subsequent drafts including final budget.. 

[Robhuntandfish]

Just now, G-Man said:

That was tried attached to budget 4 years ago and was vetoed by coumo then was left out of it.. in subsequent drafts including final budget.. 

but not as an update to the whitetail management plan that hasnt been updated in 10 years.  It wont have a good chance to pass on its own for sure.  Guess we will have to see, but i dont see this being thrown out of the plan and i think the plan will go thru.  Bills can be written and into comittee in 24 hours.  Cuomo prob vetoed it cause it was an additon on the Republican side and had no backing, he didnt pick that out because he cares if we hunt with a crossbow, it was because it was an indivual add on not a state plan. We will see, very hard to tell.  

[phade]

1 hour ago, DoubleDose said:

There is nothing to tap into.  NYS does not have dedicated funds.  DEC license money is not earmarked for DEC.  If DEC has surplus money, it does not have to go to DEC.  All NYS taxes, fees, licences, etc money goes into the state general coffer and the Governor decides what and how much to fund with the budget. 

Lifetime licenses go into New York State's Fish and Game Trust Fund and cannot be touched - the interest off of the account is to be moved to CFAB annually for spending on fish and wildlife by law. They are dedicated funds as a result.

I don't recall the specifics but there was a big "to-do" because Cuomo found a way via the Comptroller to mess with either the interest or the investment of the fund itself to pay for things that were not really fish and wildlife related.

[Four Seasons]

These tags way back when were the best. 1/2 on deer and 1/2 mailed in. Check in stations and mailing back unused tags would halt a whole bunch of the taking of illegal bucks. Most of which are younger bucks. 

[Larry]

What I like is there are guys still pushing AR’s to get bigger bucks that’s a line of crap. The most you can hope to get in the harvest is something less then 65% of the bucks being 2 ½ years or older it’s more like 60%. The data bears that out take a look at Pa. they have had AR’s for over 15 years and the highest harvest rate of 2.5-year old’s or better was about 66% in the last 5years but the average was less then 60%. Last year NY had a 62.6% of bucks harvested was 2.5 years or older and a 58.8 rate 2018. Seeing both NY and Pa calculate there harvest the same way you are comparing apples to apples. Pa was 66% 2019 and 64% 2018. But there are swings of over 10% in the 15 years Pa has had AR’s. the low was 54% 2016.

The other thing I would like to ask the AR crowd, is what if you don’t reach what ever magical number then what do.

[BowmanMike]

How does the dec determine the age of harvested bucks? Just by antler points? That seems pretty loose to me. 

[DoubleDose]

13 hours ago, Four Seasons said:

These tags way back when were the best. 1/2 on deer and 1/2 mailed in. Check in stations and mailing back unused tags would halt a whole bunch of the taking of illegal bucks. Most of which are younger bucks. 

Back then was no better than today regarding hunter behavior.  In fact, it may have been far worse.  Even though it was "drop in the mail" reporting versus telephone/online reporting many people just still did not do it.  I do not believe check in stations and mailing back unused tags would halt a whole bunch of the taking of illegal bucks either.  Unethical & illegal hunter behavior, just like criminal behavior, cannot be changed by legislation, rules, and regulations.  Those exist for prosecution/punishment after the fact.  

[steve863]

1 hour ago, DoubleDose said:

Back then was no better than today regarding hunter behavior.  In fact, it may have been far worse.  Even though it was "drop in the mail" reporting versus telephone/online reporting many people just still did not do it.  I do not believe check in stations and mailing back unused tags would halt a whole bunch of the taking of illegal bucks either.  Unethical & illegal hunter behavior, just like criminal behavior, cannot be changed by legislation, rules, and regulations.  Those exist for prosecution/punishment after the fact.  

I checked the numbers in the 1950's and the harvest totals were around 60,000 to 80,000 in those years.  I couldn't imagine check stations checking the 230,000 plus deer that get killed these days.  NYS can't even fix our roads and you think they will give one hoot about checking each deer that gets shot?  No way!  Will never happen.

[steve863]

21 hours ago, Four Seasons said:

If you need weeks to kill a deer you probably need another hobby. 

Why don't you tell Adirondack gun hunters this.  Maybe Catskill hunters too, where AR's are the rule and few doe permits issued.  You are obviously lucky to hunt places where you see lots of deer.  Many others aren't so lucky.  Plus, many hunters have only weekends to hunt so even with a 23 day gun season they may only get a chance to hunt 5 or 6 days in total. In my opinion the way NYS has it set up satisfies most.  If you are such a great hunter and can kill your B&C buck in three days then all you need to do is clean your rifle and sit out the rest of the season and let others hunt the way they want the remaining days of the season.

[Five Seasons]

On 12/30/2020 at 3:27 PM, 9jNYstarkOH said:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/573347

 

On 12/30/2020 at 3:31 PM, DoubleDose said:

Didn't miss the point at all.  Trial153 stated "looks" in a discussion about xbows.  I also commented that Ranging sights (self adjusting optic) exist for vertical bows too.

and if you go to AT, you'll see these aren't all they're cracked up to be. None the less, the archer still needs to draw and hold at a range typically under 40 yards. This is not the case for the crossbow. Adding electronic self adjusting optics/scopes to crossbows really start to push the limits of calling them "archery equipment" don't you think?

[Five Seasons]

On 12/30/2020 at 4:03 PM, Biz-R-OWorld said:

If NY wanted to become a big buck state, that had successful outfitters, etc. it would need to do some or all of the following in my opinion:

• 1-buck rule per hunter, regardless of weapon (this forces Hunters to be more picky and pass more younger bucks)
• Antler Restrictions state-wide (maybe vary them across the state by unit- 3 to a side in Eastern NY and 4 to a side in Western NY)
• Shorten the gun season to 1 single week whether it's 5, 6, or 7 days
• Make the penalties for poaching and illegal kills/tagging much much harsher. The above new rules only work if there is strict enforcement. A fine can't be only $500 or some guys will be ok with paying $500/year to shoot 2 bucks. The penalties/fines/loss of licenses need to be harsh.

I'd like this except for ARs, but NY doesn't really want to be a big buck state, NY want's to decrease our existing deer population to appease the insurance companies and the Karen's of the world complaining about their shrubs being eaten. 

[Five Seasons]

On 12/31/2020 at 10:41 AM, steve863 said:

 

I agree.  The state shouldn't be in the business to cater to trophy hunters.  The purpose of deer hunting is to control the deer population first and foremost.  Those who think that NY will go to a week long gun season from a three week long season that has been in effect for decades are dreaming.  Will never happen and rightfully so.  Why the hell should gun hunters have only 7 short days to hunt deer?   From what I see plenty of people end up taking big bucks in this state even with the "long" gun season so why change things?  Same goes with AR's and check stations.  A complete waste of time and money that wouldn't better the hunting in NY in the least

 

I don't think the gun season should be shortened. I'm not sure anyone said that, just that if you're going to compare the crossbow use in Ohio, that you also need to mention how their firearm season lines up with it.

I do think that adding an extra week to an already lengthy gun season is unnecessary and while I understand that it's my choice to hunt or not, there is something nice about just knowing it's done and I can spend it with my family and not have any guilt about that big buck i saw during daylight on 12/19...

[Five Seasons]

On 12/31/2020 at 10:45 AM, Versatile_Hunter said:

We need a Pittman-Robertson like excise tax on gear used by hikers and birdwatchers or a general permit requirement for accessing state public lands. Hunters are effectively funding the management and care of land and wildlife enjoyed by many. It’s time other recreational outdoors people contributed to the pot 

it's up for vote in some western states with the understanding that it has a snowballs chance in hell to pass. However, bino's do get taxed so there's some benefit there. Also a few states have park use permits that many hikers, bikers and watchers purchase.

The best idea i've heard was to include the "backpack tax" as they call it, but to separate out the 2 funds. The backpack tax would go to hiking trails and resources that are used by both, but would not go to resources that support hunting. I feel that's a good compromise and probably the only way to get it to pass. 

[Five Seasons]

On 12/31/2020 at 12:12 PM, phade said:

Be careful of what you ask for IMO. Giving them more space at the table probably doesn't end well for hunters IMO.

I'm perfectly fine with that totally unfair financial support. It's one of the last legs of the table still standing.

bingo. also consider that the majority of pitman robertson (i dont recall the numbers specifically) comes from ammo and guns and not the single box of .30-06 a hunter buys every 5 years, but from sport and target shooters that don't always see the benefits even though pitman robertson has been and can be used by states to build public ranges. Most recently it's too hot so they do other projects instead. 

[Five Seasons]

On 12/31/2020 at 3:08 PM, G-Man said:

The dec backed every bill and so did sportsman alliance. It still never made it out of committee, letter were written and sent in ,lobbiest did their part , still never made it out of committee.  Will have to be redrafted and send back to committee,  then discussed and then this will be shown to want it..  but may still not make it out of committee,  as they are politicians not biologists/ game managers

because us archers also opposed it. Remember there are groups who oppose this and worked and wrote letters to our elected officials too. While some groups wanted it, others didn't and as much as it pains me to say it, you could look at this as a win for democracy whereas if the DEC gets their way we lose any small chance at all of opposing their decisions and they just get to decide it all without vote and without input. 

[DoubleDose]

57 minutes ago, Belo said:

 

and if you go to AT, you'll see these aren't all they're cracked up to be. None the less, the archer still needs to draw and hold at a range typically under 40 yards. This is not the case for the crossbow. Adding electronic self adjusting optics/scopes to crossbows really start to push the limits of calling them "archery equipment" don't you think?

I cannot disagree with you at all.  Vertical bow is more difficult/challenging than xbows.  When DEC created shotgun areas, they were thinking smooth bore and pumpkin slugs.  This has advanced to rifled barrels and high performance sabot ammo, "pushing the limits" and they are still included.  When DEC created ML season, they were thinking BP and round ball.  This has advanced to smokeless powder and sabot bullets, "pushing the limits" and they are still included.  When DEC created archery season, they were thinking traditional stick and recurves.  This has advanced to compounds and high let off, "pushing the limits" and they are still included. 

IMO, the underlying argument against xbows is the concern that the woods will be flooded with more hunters during "archery" season; and not some other reason.

Edited January 4, 2021 by DoubleDose
typo

[G-Man]

28 minutes ago, Belo said:

because us archers also opposed it. Remember there are groups who oppose this and worked and wrote letters to our elected officials too. While some groups wanted it, others didn't and as much as it pains me to say it, you could look at this as a win for democracy whereas if the DEC gets their way we lose any small chance at all of opposing their decisions and they just get to decide it all without vote and without input. 

I understand that completely i was just try to point out this doenst mean it will happen if at all in the next 10 years. The way it was released it seemed like people just assume this is it and are going crazy buying crossbows that are not nys compliant cause this it happening.

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, DoubleDose said:

I cannot disagree with you at all.  Vertical bow is more difficult/challenging than xbows.  When DEC created shotgun areas, they were thinking smooth bore and pumpkin slugs.  This has advanced to rifled barrels and high performance sabot ammo, "pushing the limits" and they are still included.  When DEC created ML season, they were thinking BP and round ball.  This has advanced to smokeless powder and sabot bullets, "pushing the limits" and they are still included.  When DEC created archery season, they were thinking traditional stick and recurves.  This has advanced to compounds and high let off, "pushing the limits" and they are still included. 

IMO, the underlying argument against xbows is the concern that the woods will be flooded with more hunters during "archery" season; and not some other reason.

I have to call BS on a bunch of this.

Shotgun areas were created due to safety and recently many of these areas have been opened back up to rifle as a result of studies and yes the fact that shotguns can shoot pretty far.

ML season is rather new and while the weapon has advanced quite a bit they were never thinking bp and round ball. The tech was already there when this season started.

They were not thinking stick and recurve with archery season and if anything they've opened up more archery areas by recently decreasing the setback distance from 500 to 150 even as new tech "pushes the limit". And even if they thought a bunch of indians would be out in loin cloths with self made bows, you're going from an effective range of 20 to maybe 40-50??? come on.

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

I understand that completely i was just try to point out this doenst mean it will happen if at all in the next 10 years. The way it was released it seemed like people just assume this is it and are going crazy buying crossbows that are not nys compliant cause this it happening.

if someone bought a crossbow or is planning to make money selling their venison off this proposal then i don't know what to say to that. Reading seems so complicated for people these days. They see a facebook vaccine meme and just accept it as truth without doing their own research and it's freaking scary that these people exist. You want to do your own research and come to a conclusion, fine... but man to just accept shit as fact... 

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, Belo said:

if someone bought a crossbow or is planning to make money selling their venison off this proposal then i don't know what to say to that. Reading seems so complicated for people these days. They see a facebook vaccine meme and just accept it as truth without doing their own research and it's freaking scary that these people exist. You want to do your own research and come to a conclusion, fine... but man to just accept shit as fact... 

Look at the people that thought a holiday hunt was gonna be a go this year.. or that didnt know your regular tag become either sex with bow or muzzlloader privledge , been that way for at least a decade in the guide book ...the dec do not handle their releases very well, 

yep its a sad world we live in for sure.

[Five Seasons]

16 hours ago, G-Man said:

Look at the people that thought a holiday hunt was gonna be a go this year.. or that didnt know your regular tag become either sex with bow or muzzlloader privledge , been that way for at least a decade in the guide book ...the dec do not handle their releases very well, 

yep its a sad world we live in for sure.

you and I may not always agree, but I do respect the work you put in

[Trial153]

hey hows this for the archery season ........

 

https://www.bowhunterssuperstore.com/excalibur-twin-strike-crossbow-package-e74353.html?mc_cid=3fab8c8bb5&mc_eid=2ee9e7fe22

[Larry]

Here are a few things I have notice about crossbow hunters. I know 12 guys that hunt with a crossbow and all but 1 also hunt with a bow. The 1 guy that doesn’t is right-handed but is left eye dominate he tried using a bow but couldn’t get it. That doesn’t mean gun guys haven’t gone to a crossbow.

A crossbow is easier to get good at shooting. But that’s not a bad thing. I would rather see a guy using a crossbow that shoots well. then a guy who brings his bow out 2 weeks before the season, and can’t shoot for crap and calls himself a bow hunter.

I wonder how many guys would be in favor of having to qualify with there bow or crossbow every year to get your bow tags. Then see how many bow guys would switch to a crossbow because it’s easier to shoot.

[G-Man]

39 minutes ago, Larry said:

Here are a few things I have notice about crossbow hunters. I know 12 guys that hunt with a crossbow and all but 1 also hunt with a bow. The 1 guy that doesn’t is right-handed but is left eye dominate he tried using a bow but couldn’t get it. That doesn’t mean gun guys haven’t gone to a crossbow.

A crossbow is easier to get good at shooting. But that’s not a bad thing. I would rather see a guy using a crossbow that shoots well. then a guy who brings his bow out 2 weeks before the season, and can’t shoot for crap and calls himself a bow hunter.

I wonder how many guys would be in favor of having to qualify with there bow or crossbow every year to get your bow tags. Then see how many bow guys would switch to a crossbow because it’s easier to shoot.

Yep everyone but one i know ( brothers wife ) all hunt archery..  the main issue is to get it made archery equipment required bow course,no grandfathered in.  Then seperate bow and muzzleloader tags completely.  Learning how a bow and arrow kills is vital to effecient harvests with crossbow.. the aiming points are different. Most of the complaints about crossbow hunters could be eliminated by education.  No neck shots, frontal, high shoulder, headshot because people think its a gun.. that is main reason i want it classified as bow.. could care less about restrictions to make it legal, there are a lot out there that comply and can be purchased.  

[Nomad]

On 1/4/2021 at 11:54 AM, DoubleDose said:

I cannot disagree with you at all.  Vertical bow is more difficult/challenging than xbows.  When DEC created shotgun areas, they were thinking smooth bore and pumpkin slugs.  This has advanced to rifled barrels and high performance sabot ammo, "pushing the limits" and they are still included.  When DEC created ML season, they were thinking BP and round ball.  This has advanced to smokeless powder and sabot bullets, "pushing the limits" and they are still included.  When DEC created archery season, they were thinking traditional stick and recurves.  This has advanced to compounds and high let off, "pushing the limits" and they are still included. 

IMO, the underlying argument against xbows is the concern that the woods will be flooded with more hunters during "archery" season; and not some other reason.

Agree . I bought a ML to use in shotgun season as it was a superior weapon , I chuckled that it got a separate late season like it was somehow an inferior weapon . Today guys are shooting deer at 300 yards with them , yet there  they are along with bow in a special season . Might as well allow single shot rifles as well .