New pickup thoughts?

[Jeremy K]

This article says 5 percent ,we were told 8 percent . I have no way of truly figuring it out ,I'm not smart enough to know exactly what numbers to work with.

[phade]

Gross margins of 10-20%. Net margins much less; two different measurements I see for Gm for 2020 or part of 2020 and 2021 range between 5-7% net.

Direct labor from what industry detail shows is 21% ballpark. Materials making up 50-60% on average.

 

 

[Steuben Jerry]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

This article says 5 percent

I wonder if that's just vehicle assembly plant worker labor costs?

[phade]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

This article says 5 percent ,we were told 8 percent . I have no way of truly figuring it out ,I'm not smart enough to know exactly what numbers to work with.

It'd be hard to get a firm number as it's not required released detail. Auto industry is more unique in that employee expenses are not the top expense line. In the majority of industries, EEs typically are #1, followed by benefits, etc. But in large, I did see that there is a wide swing I guess model to model and brand to brand. What annoys me is that a few places listed "administration" as being 10% of the cost of production and that is one heck of a sloppy term - that could mean alot of things and maybe even mean different things to different companies.

Net margins were pretty small as I suspected but GM seems to be doing pretty well compared to where it was years ago.

Edited June 30, 2021 by phade

[Jeremy K]

16 minutes ago, phade said:

It'd be hard to get a firm number as it's not required released detail. Auto industry is more unique in that employee expenses are not the top expense line. In the majority of industries, EEs typically are #1, followed by benefits, etc. But in large, I did see that there is a wide swing I guess model to model and brand to brand. What annoys me is that a few places listed "administration" as being 10% of the cost of production and that is one heck of a sloppy term - that could mean alot of things and maybe even mean different things to different companies.

Net margins were pretty small as I suspected but GM seems to be doing pretty well compared to where it was years ago.

I usually see a dollar figure per hour for each worker . I think it's just a number they can rely on more then percent of unknown profit. Again this is super far from my wheel house ,I'm just kind of half assed repeating what I hear or read in the news letters.

[Jeremy K]

19 minutes ago, phade said:

It'd be hard to get a firm number as it's not required released detail. Auto industry is more unique in that employee expenses are not the top expense line. In the majority of industries, EEs typically are #1, followed by benefits, etc. But in large, I did see that there is a wide swing I guess model to model and brand to brand. What annoys me is that a few places listed "administration" as being 10% of the cost of production and that is one heck of a sloppy term - that could mean alot of things and maybe even mean different things to different companies.

Net margins were pretty small as I suspected but GM seems to be doing pretty well compared to where it was years ago.

My buddy works in the financial department for GM in detroit ,he was saying that legacy employees are really throwing a wrench into the works ,he was saying when pensions were calculated people weren't living as long . So they didnt factor innthe extra expenses . Pensions aren't a thing anymore for people hired after a certain date so eventually over time it will free up capital.

[BizCT]

37 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

My buddy works in the financial department for GM in detroit ,he was saying that legacy employees are really throwing a wrench into the works ,he was saying when pensions were calculated people weren't living as long . So they didnt factor innthe extra expenses . Pensions aren't a thing anymore for people hired after a certain date so eventually over time it will free up capital.

We typically factor in +30% for benefits/401k match/etc.....in addition to someone's salary to determine overall comp cost. But then you have to factor in overhead too. Rent, electric, computers, coffee, cleaning services, etc. in the building divided by X number of employees for the overhead cost to be added to each comp cost per person.

[mowin]

4 hours ago, Gencountyzeek said:

I had to dip my toes in the crazy vehicle market. I have a 2021 ram 2500 powerwagon showing up at the end of july. Cant wait to get it other than the outstanding gas mileage  ill be getting...pic of what it will be.

I almost went back to Ram.  Liked them alot. I would get 18mpg on a trip unloaded. Towing my mowers around town 11.  I think the 21's have a 8 or 10 speed tranny?

[luberhill]

4 hours ago, Steuben Jerry said:

Most of the money is cost, not margin. A majority of the cost goes to salaries of the assembly plant workers, and indirectly to the salaries and benefits of the workers in the USA that make the parts. In the ultra competitive world of vehicle manufacturing, I'd be surprised if the margin is as high as 20%. If a car company from Japan said hey, let me build a plant in the USA and I'll keep 80% of the money there while I skim 20% for my country, I'd say that's a better deal than building a plant in Japan.

I would actually like to buy a Ford. I just like them a lot. When Ford gains a track record of a quarter million miles with no mechanical issues, I'll trade in my Tundra in a 

My last 3 Fords have all had over 250k on them with zero major repairs

In fact they ALL had original water pump, fuel pump, alternator , hoses, starter…

The Toyota so called trucks to me seem cheesy , lite weight , rust buckets and small.

But whatever u like I guess

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by luberhill

[phade]

2 hours ago, Jeremy K said:

My buddy works in the financial department for GM in detroit ,he was saying that legacy employees are really throwing a wrench into the works ,he was saying when pensions were calculated people weren't living as long . So they didnt factor innthe extra expenses . Pensions aren't a thing anymore for people hired after a certain date so eventually over time it will free up capital.

Pensions fell off the popularity wagon because of exactly what you described and employers bore more of the brunt of cost for employees' lives beyond their applicable work contributions. The part that stinks is that churning those EEs out over time doesn't fix the challenges of rising benefit costs. I'm fortunate to get some inside context around benefits at our company and from what I understand that we're not unique. A disproportionately small % of participants in an employer's plan consume the overwhelming majority of money put into a plan. The subsidizing is needed to even have the plans functional.

Pensions now are the frying pan into the fire scenario. 

I do see escalating wage growth happening for EEs so that is good, but I haven't seen companies look to reduce margins or dividends either to shore that gap up. Chase for example bumped up analyst pay 15% starting wage, but nobody asked the question where its coming from. I haven't seen a good answer there yet unless they're somehow improving leverage and finding excess capital to move into the expense side of the house. 

Example being - I need $200K for my expense budget. For me to get that, I need to grow revenue by $1M roughly. So where is it coming from, in these cases.

Edited June 30, 2021 by phade

[Steuben Jerry]

2 hours ago, luberhill said:

cheesy , lite weight , rust buckets and small.

Tundras? Definitely not small as it's a full sized truck with 381 HP and a 10,000 lb towing capacity. My last one didn't have a speck of rust in 11 years. I only got rid of it because after letting it sit idle for a few weeks at my house, rodents got under my hood and destroyed my wiring harness. Got it fixed and traded it in on a new Tundra. Got over $11k for a trade and they knew about the electrical repairs - carfax I guess?

All that said, your Ford experience is very encouraging to hear. My next one very well could be an F-150.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Steuben Jerry

[mowin]

2 hours ago, luberhill said:

My last 3 Fords have all had over 250k on them with zero major repairs

In fact they ALL had original water pump, fuel pump, alternator , hoses, starter…

The Toyota so called trucks to me seem cheesy , lite weight , rust buckets and small.

But whatever u like I guess

 

Must use a different fuel pump than the superduty.  I'm on my 3 fuel pump, and this one is failing. I'm hoping it lasts until my new truck comes in. 

[luberhill]

2 hours ago, Steuben Jerry said:

Tundras? Definitely not small as it's a full sized truck with 381 HP and a 10,000 lb towing capacity. My last one didn't have a speck of rust in 11 years. I only got rid of it because after letting it sit idle for a few weeks at my house, rodents got under my hood and destroyed my wiring harness. Got it fixed and traded it in on a new Tundra. Got over $11k for a trade and they knew about the electrical repairs - carfax I guess?

All that said, your Ford experience is very encouraging to hear. My next one very well could be an F-150.

When parking my f150 next to a Tundra , the Tundra looks narrower and smaller ..and interior cheesy ..

But it’s all what u like 

 

[Gencountyzeek]

5 hours ago, mowin said:

I almost went back to Ram.  Liked them alot. I would get 18mpg on a trip unloaded. Towing my mowers around town 11.  I think the 21's have a 8 or 10 speed tranny?

8sp now in the 1500 and 2500.  

1500 had the 8sp in 2019, which is what im trading in.

[Steuben Jerry]

1 hour ago, luberhill said:

When parking my f150 next to a Tundra , the Tundra looks narrower and smaller ..and interior cheesy ..

But it’s all what u like 

 

I’ll agree that the F150 definitely is better appointed interior-wise. My son in law’s F150 rides nicer than my Tundra too. But so far his 2019 has been back to the dealer three times for warranty work. My 2018 just went in for the first time about a month ago.

[mowin]

2 hours ago, Gencountyzeek said:

8sp now in the 1500 and 2500.  

1500 had the 8sp in 2019, which is what im trading in.

I thought they changed the tranny. I've heard it searches gears alot.  Did the 3500 6.4 keep the 6sp?

[mowin]

GM announced the HD radio will not be available for 2021 built after 7/27, and all 22 HD's will not have that option.  Also the advanced trailering package will not be available for the 1500 or HD.  I had the advanced trailer package in my initial build and it was rejected 3 weeks ago for a 21 model.  I was hopeful they would keep it on HD's for the 22's but nope. Dealer called me today and said no go...

[luberhill]

1 hour ago, Steuben Jerry said:

I’ll agree that the F150 definitely is better appointed interior-wise. My son in law’s F150 rides nicer than my Tundra too. But so far his 2019 has been back to the dealer three times for warranty work. My 2018 just went in for the first time about a month ago.

Keep in mind Ford makes more trucks than Chevy and GM combine , and many more than Toyota 

So law of averages says there will be more issues.

I’ll take a Ford over ANY of them .

Ive towed a 20 ft bass boat all over the country , 70k miles a year between that and work ..

Ive run Ram ,GM and Ford 

Hands down Ford towed ,rode ,and held up the best !!

 

[Gencountyzeek]

46 minutes ago, mowin said:

I thought they changed the tranny. I've heard it searches gears alot.  Did the 3500 6.4 keep the 6sp?

The 8spd transmission in the ram has been great compared to the 8spd i had in my 2017 gmc. The sierra would slam when coming to a stop. I have no complaints about this ram surprisingly, i was always a ford guy then gmc, loved my 6.2l sierra, but the interiors suck. 

Not sure about the 3500...

[mowin]

53 minutes ago, luberhill said:

Keep in mind Ford makes more trucks than Chevy and GM combine , and many more than Toyota 

So law of averages says there will be more issues.

I’ll take a Ford over ANY of them .

Ive towed a 20 ft bass boat all over the country , 70k miles a year between that and work ..

Ive run Ram ,GM and Ford 

Hands down Ford towed ,rode ,and held up the best !!

 

And a bass boat weighs how much? 

My 6.4 Rams 3500's towed my two mowers/trailer up the same hills as my 6.2 Ford. The Ram would hold the speed and might shift down to 5th. My Ford f350 is in 3rd gear screaming.  

Not to mention the death wobble and fuel pump issues.  Looking forward to dumping the POS fix or repair daily truck.  

[luberhill]

24 minutes ago, mowin said:

And a bass boat weighs how much? 

My 6.4 Rams 3500's towed my two mowers/trailer up the same hills as my 6.2 Ford. The Ram would hold the speed and might shift down to 5th. My Ford f350 is in 3rd gear screaming.  

Not to mention the death wobble and fuel pump issues.  Looking forward to dumping the POS fix or repair daily truck.  

Ha well the boat , motor , trailer , tackle , 55 gallons of fuel , had a 250 hp outboard  was over 3600 pounds, then add my payload..and avg 70k miles a year .

And it was a half ton truck ,,the Ram 1/2 tons were garbage ! I had 3 of them and ever one was junk !

Last one Chrysler bought back because it was in the shop more than on the road .

Im a tier one supplier for Chrysler so that’s the only reason I ran these s##t box wannabe trucks .

Never again 

The F150 is sooooo much better at towing , much more plush , tons better fuel mileage …

Id never buy another Chrysler /Fiat product !

Edited July 1, 2021 by luberhill

[mowin]

8 hours ago, luberhill said:

Ha well the boat , motor , trailer , tackle , 55 gallons of fuel , had a 250 hp outboard  was over 3600 pounds, then add my payload..and avg 70k miles a year .

And it was a half ton truck ,,the Ram 1/2 tons were garbage ! I had 3 of them and ever one was junk !

Last one Chrysler bought back because it was in the shop more than on the road .

Im a tier one supplier for Chrysler so that’s the only reason I ran these s##t box wannabe trucks .

Never again 

The F150 is sooooo much better at towing , much more plush , tons better fuel mileage …

Id never buy another Chrysler /Fiat product !

3700 lbs is about what I'm towing daily with my mowing trailer.  But I'm only doing 20-25k a yr. I'd own a half ton in a second if I didn't plow and rent mini's and skids often.  

The way you feel about Chrysler, is how I feel about Ford. Never again will a Ford product be parked in my garage. Absolute garbage. 

[rob-c]

I have to say all this my truck is better than yours is funny to me, I’m a Ford guy but No manufacturer None has a vehicle that’s fool proof even Toyota’s. Do a internet search on any vehicle made and you’ll find some one who’s had problems. If any brand is so awesome and reliable then why do dealerships have bays and their own tech’s . 

[Wildcat]

38 minutes ago, rob-c said:

I have to say all this my truck is better than yours is funny to me, I’m a Ford guy but No manufacturer None has a vehicle that’s fool proof even Toyota’s. Do a internet search on any vehicle made and you’ll find some one who’s had problems. If any brand is so awesome and reliable then why do dealerships have bays and their own tech’s . 

agree 100%...   I have a 2017 F-250 diesel and it is by far the best truck I have ever owned (I've owned Chevy, dodge and GMC)...   I am sure there are others that have owned the same truck and have had a bad experiences..   It is always great to have choices/options

[knehrke]

I've owned all of the major brands, and I've never had a real issue with any of them. I think that the vehicles of today are far superior to those produced just twenty years ago. All the guys I know love their trucks, with perhaps Toyotas being a bit more loved than others lol.

Right now I'm in a F-150 with the Ecoboost engine, and I can't complain. It does a good job with my 17' Lund - I don't even notice it's there - but I haven't towed the big boat in years. It stays as the marina, so no feel for large payloads.