Single Shot Shotguns Should be Allowed During Muzzle Loader Season

[land 1]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

I think Kentucky Ohio Minnesota we're considering it. Some areas  have single shot  shotgun seasons where you can use a muzzle loader . There are so many different regs out there even with in a state .

 

the states i found require use of black powder, and must be replicas or antique firearms "non modern firearms," and there are some new single shot shotguns for 104 to 110 but nothing for 90 i can find but close ill give u that

[phantom]

57 minutes ago, land 1 said:

the states i found require use of black powder, and must be replicas or antique firearms "non modern firearms," and there are some new single shot shotguns for 104 to 110 but nothing for 90 i can find but close ill give u that

About 3 years 4 years ago they were that low befor covid now everthing is up .

[phantom]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

I like the single-shot smoothbore shotgun in ML season idea.  It might have put an extra deer in my freezer last year, during the Holliday ML season.  

I caught the tail end of the Christmas blizzard on the first day of that last year.  A considerable amount of wind driven snow must have made it into my muzzle that morning, then melted down into the powder charge, when I brought the gun in the house at lunch time.

That was the second mistake I made that day.  I should have left the gun out in my unheated barn.  I also should have covered the muzzle, when hunting in the wind driven snow, that morning. 
 

That evening, I suffered my first misfire with my in-line ML, saving the life of a nice sized broadside doe at 50 yards.  My old, NY-arms 12 ga single shot smoothbore would have had no trouble getting the job done that day with a plastic-cased smokeless-powder slug. 

If such a law passes (and I don’t believe it ever will), I would only use that shotgun on rainy or snowy days.  

 

Yea your Probably right it will take a Lobbiest to get that past ,  Make a donation to the right people you know how it is. The crossbow companies figured out the Formula . But they get you to spend a arm and leg on there products so was worth it to them dont think shotgun companys need that season to sell there Products so they are not going To hire lawyers to get that past or make donation to the right people . Also the The muzzle loader companies would fight against it anyway cause they want you to buy their stuff . 

 

[Grouse]

It seems to me if they were to allow single shot shotguns during ML season, there would be more people hunting that season and most of them would be using single shot shotguns.  That would defeat the purpose of the primitive weapons idea that ML seasons were designed to encourage.

A single shot shotgun can be reloaded very quickly, compared to a ML.  That really negates the idea of hunting deer with a rifle that has to make the first shot count and requires special knowledge of an antique weapon to be successful.

We already have modern ML rifles that have removed the mystique of ML use.  I don't think it would be wise to remove the need to use a ML during a ML season.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Grouse

[DirtTime]

Well would you look at that! A new take on the crossbow in the whole archery season, shotguns in the ML season. This will get fun.

 

Another good one from the storm that's far from home.

[phantom]

1 hour ago, DirtTime said:

Well would you look at that! A new take on the crossbow in the whole archery season, shotguns in the ML season. This will get fun.

 

Another good one from the storm that's far from home.

You can already use crossbow in mz season it also can be loaded faster then a mz gun is more  convenient. so already they are Transitioning  the rules same with bow season little By little technology the rules change one way or the other exactly what Is going to happen in next 20 years who knows.

Edited February 27, 2023 by phantom

[Grouse]

ML seasons were devised after rifle technology had advanced far beyond black powder.  They were meant to allow hunters to challenge themselves with primitive weapons.  A special season was allowed due to the difficulty of being successful and low harvest expectations.  PA still has a flintlock only season that won't allow caplocks to be used.

Technology advanced in ML with inlines and states allowed inlines to be used, but only if they had to be loaded from the muzzle.  The new powder cartridge breach loaded, but muzzle stuffed bullet rifles are not being accepted in many states and may prove to be the straw that breaks the camel's back for ML rifle approval.  That may be where ML technology draws the line. 

A cartridge loaded single shot is never going to be considered a primitive weapon because it's loaded with a complete cartridge.  Should that be allowed in a ML season?  If so, I could use my Ruger No. 1B in .30-06 to hunt deer during ML season.  That rifle has many advantages over any ML, old school or inline, and just doesn't fit the primitive weapon idea.

Archery tackle has always been advancing since the first archery season was offered, so the equipment kept getting more efficient and complicated.  Buit the crossbow has people starting to question if that is something that should be allowed during archery season, because it detracts from the original idea of using a string and stick bow in a challenging way.  A crossbow certainly makes it easier for a hunter to be successful in bow season, but is that what these challenging seasons are supposed to be doing?  Making the challenge easier?

If so, I expect harvest success rates will go up and the season lengths and doe permits will go down because the season will have a much stronger effect on herd control.

[luberhill]

So… the federal and traditions “ fire stick” loads like a single shot shotgun but it’s legal as a muzzleloader right ?

Even though it’s not 

[airedale]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

A cartridge loaded single shot is never going to be considered a primitive weapon

I have been hunting with single shots for years and I have never considered them to be primitive or being at a disadvantage using one.

Al

[luberhill]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

ML seasons were devised after rifle technology had advanced far beyond black powder.  They were meant to allow hunters to challenge themselves with primitive weapons.  A special season was allowed due to the difficulty of being successful and low harvest expectations.  PA still has a flintlock only season that won't allow caplocks to be used.

Technology advanced in ML with inlines and states allowed inlines to be used, but only if they had to be loaded from the muzzle.  The new powder cartridge breach loaded, but muzzle stuffed bullet rifles are not being accepted in many states and may prove to be the straw that breaks the camel's back for ML rifle approval.  That may be where ML technology draws the line. 

A cartridge loaded single shot is never going to be considered a primitive weapon because it's loaded with a complete cartridge.  Should that be allowed in a ML season?  If so, I could use my Ruger No. 1B in .30-06 to hunt deer during ML season.  That rifle has many advantages over any ML, old school or inline, and just doesn't fit the primitive weapon idea.

Archery tackle has always been advancing since the first archery season was offered, so the equipment kept getting more efficient and complicated.  Buit the crossbow has people starting to question if that is something that should be allowed during archery season, because it detracts from the original idea of using a string and stick bow in a challenging way.  A crossbow certainly makes it easier for a hunter to be successful in bow season, but is that what these challenging seasons are supposed to be doing?  Making the challenge easier?

If so, I expect harvest success rates will go up and the season lengths and doe permits will go down because the season will have a much stronger effect on herd control.

The cartridge loaded fire stick , are they legal in NY ??

If so then the description of a muzzleloader needs to be changed right ?

[Chromeslayer]

14 minutes ago, luberhill said:

The cartridge loaded fire stick , are they legal in NY ??

If so then the description of a muzzleloader needs to be changed right ?

The bullet is still loaded through the muzzle on the nitro fire

[DirtTime]

3 hours ago, DirtTime said:

Well would you look at that! A new take on the crossbow in the whole archery season, shotguns in the ML season. This will get fun.

 

Another good one from the storm that's far from home.

 

1 hour ago, phantom said:

You can already use crossbow in mz season it also can be loaded faster then a mz gun is more  convenient. so already they are Transitioning  the rules same with bow season little By little technology the rules change one way or the other exactly what Is going to happen in next 20 years who knows.

You don't pay attention do you? Reread what I posted and your reply. No one who hunts with a ML is going to want a non muzzle loading firearm in the ML seasons any more than the vert bow guys want crossbows in the entire archery season.

 

[Untwisted Pretzel logic]

40 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Archery tackle has always been advancing since the first archery season was offered, so the equipment kept getting more efficient and complicated.  Buit the crossbow has people starting to question if that is something that should be allowed during archery season, because it detracts from the original idea of using a string and stick bow in a challenging way.  A crossbow certainly makes it easier for a hunter to be successful in bow season, but is that what these challenging seasons are supposed to be doing?  Making the challenge easier?

If so, I expect harvest success rates will go up and the season lengths and doe permits will go down because the season will have a much stronger effect on herd control.

To provide context - Crossbow and archery technology were fairly constant from the 7th century until the mid 20th century when vertical bow technology took a giant leap forward with cams, release aids, etc. Until that point both crossbows and vertical bows were both primitive weapons. Crossbow technology borrowed the advanced cams developed for vertical bows for improved efficiency. Just some history, I don't think we want to go further off the rails discussing how modern compound bows are primitive weapons.

Your last sentence is 100 percent correct- if there was a change involving single shot shotguns, which I believe that possibility to be closer to zero percent.

[Robby]

My goodness!!!! This sure brought out the opinionists. Without reading all the responses, and not giving it much thought before typing, my first reaction is that I am so sick of more and more laws and regulations roping people in and roping people out. Being that I prefer to become adept with and hunt with what some might call primitive weaponry, I guess I would like it best if they further restricted the existing muzzleloader season to matchlock's, wheel lock's, flintlocks', and those cap lock's as found before the twentieth century. But, solely hunting with a archery equipment that I made myself right down to the arrow shaft and broadhead for years before I took up muzzleloading, I was still, against those that wanted to ban the compound bow, wanted to ban the release device, and later wanted to ban the crossbow. To me, if a man wants to hunt with a rock, I say as long as he is well practiced with it, have at it. Years ago there were those, and many of those, that wanted to restrict the regular deer season to single shot shotguns, and yet look what we have now. We have more and better technology in making the taking of wild game easier and more efficient, yet I don't think the success rate has grown all that much. So I guess, to me anyway, I have always thought people should work on their hunting skill's, as opposed to working overtime to afford the latest and greatest in game taking.

Bottom line? I have no answer, the decisions for such a thing will be made on the basis of things that have very little to do with hunting and game management, cuz, this is a city run state and we have little to say on how things are done in any respect. What is this Republic I hear spoken of.

Robby

[LET EM GROW]

The concept of a single projectile stays the same, BUT loading it and keeping Traditional "style" hunting stays the reason for the season and its regulations on Implements used. Yes new scopes and such make them more of a fine tuned machine vs the past.. But There's no reason to add Single shot shotguns and straight wall cartridge's to this season.. Stop with the changing of everything... Either ADAPT to it or wait your turn... 

Just like the crossbow guys that don't want to shoot a vertical bow but want them introduced into Vertical archery season.. ADAPT or wait... Stop trying to change everything. There will never be a time in History where everyone is happy at the same time.. ITs simply Impossible. 

"Some" change is good, of course, and "Some" change is also Unnecessary or Un-needed

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, luberhill said:

The cartridge loaded fire stick , are they legal in NY ??

If so then the description of a muzzleloader needs to be changed right ?

They do not load a cartridge.  They load a bullet down the muzzle and a powder charge cartridge in the breech.  So they actually are a muzzleloader as far as the bullet goes, but not as far as the powder goes.  That's why some states are not allowing them.

Remember, we are talking about a "special" season, not the general rifle deer season.  What makes it "special" are the limitations imposed to take part in it.  Chip away at the limits and you risk elimination of the "special" season.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Grouse

[sbuff]

90 doller shotgun information??

[luberhill]

51 minutes ago, Grouse said:

They do not load a cartridge.  They load a bullet down the muzzle and a powder charge cartridge in the breech.  So they actually are a muzzleloader as far as the bullet goes, but not as far as the powder goes.  That's why some states are not allowing them.

Remember, we are talking about a "special" season, not the general rifle deer season.  What makes it "special" are the limitations imposed to take part in it.  Chip away at the limits and you risk elimination of the "special" season.

 

My bad , I thought they were a cartridge like a shotgun slug 

[Four Seasons]

3 hours ago, blackbeltbill said:

  I hunt in 2 States. I am far from clueless and extremely  well read. 

Yes copy and paste all day. We know. Yet you have no idea who makes the hunting seasons in Ny state?  Gotcha!  

[SportsmanNH]

If you scroll down on this webpage it shows the states that the Nitrofire is legal in . According to this map they are already legal in NY ( Green ). And quite a few that might allow them ( yellow ) . Personally I dont care for them for one reason only . The powder charge is already pre determined . We know that many muzzleloaders need to be tweaked to figure out which charge and which projectile works best . We know all muzzy's are not created equal even though its the same gun . I have 2 TC White Mountain Carbines and each one likes a different load . One shoots best with 90gr of powder with a 350gr Maxi Hunter and the other shoots best with 80gr or powder with a 375gr Maxi Ball .

As far as a single shot shotgun allowed during muzzy season , I hope they never do that up here in NH . They are totally different firearms. 

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/nitrofire

Edited February 27, 2023 by SportsmanNH

[phantom]

10 hours ago, Grouse said:

It seems to me if they were to allow single shot shotguns during ML season, there would be more people hunting that season and most of them would be using single shot shotguns.  That would defeat the purpose of the primitive weapons idea that ML seasons were designed to encourage.

A single shot shotgun can be reloaded very quickly, compared to a ML.  That really negates the idea of hunting deer with a rifle that has to make the first shot count and requires special knowledge of an antique weapon to be successful.

We already have modern ML rifles that have removed the mystique of ML use.  I don't think it would be wise to remove the need to use a ML during a ML season.

Kinda of like crossbows in archery  and we know how that is going more crossbows less archery . Its what ever is more Popular that wins out in the end I guess. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by phantom

[phantom]

Well it looks like it's going in the direction of muzz guns  that are kinda like single shot shotguns anyway. Thats pretty slick .  My pridection is this is the future of muzzle loader season every company going to start making that Design. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by phantom

[Doc]

Ha-ha-ha-ha......Here they come again. Every time a new "special season" is created, the hordes begin to apply there pry-bars to shoe-horn their way into it. It happened to bow season, and it will happen to muzzleloader season too. It's just a natural thing in the hunting community. Special seasons just highlight another set-aside time slot that every one eyeballs jealously and wants a piece of. Oh it may take a few decades, but it will eventually be stretched and pulled until you start to forget why the "special season was created. That is the fallacy of special seasons. This is only the opening salvo. Brace yourselves for more intrusions that you could never imagine right now.

[Untwisted Pretzel logic]

52 minutes ago, phantom said:

Well it looks like it's going in the direction of muzz guns  that are kinda like single shot shotguns anyway. Thats pretty slick .  My pridection is this is the future of muzzle loader season every company going to start making that Design. 

Now if they would all start selling this for $90, your prayers would be answered LOL.

I'm not looking for any special seasons, just waiting for things to warm up a little bit so I can get out fishing. Caught between ice fishing and open water fishing right now.

In the meantime, thanks Phantom for the fun discussion.

[airedale]

15 minutes ago, Untwisted Pretzel logic said:

In the meantime, thanks Phantom for the fun discussion.

Yes it is a lively entertaining thread with a lot of good input.

Al