Selfishness

[Doc]

So, are we bowhunters, and now also crossbow hunters, being selfish in excluding firearms hunters from our season? Are we displaying the "Our-deer" syndrome by demanding special, long seasons that precede any firearms deer hunting? Is there some kind of selfishness being displayed by those that want a large chunk of deer season reserved only to our chosen weapon?

 

Yeah, it sounds like a trolling topic, but I seriously want to know if perhaps over the years I have picked up an element of selfishness in my hunting attitudes as a bowhunter. Does one segment of hunters really deserve preferential treatment over another segment?

[DCHunts]

Get your popcorn ready...

[Jaeger]

Doc, thak you for bringing this up, I see it as well.  Let's hope this thread remains true to your post and we can discuss it without devolving into the usual fights and name calling.

 

I don't know about you, but I also sometimes feel like I (and others) demand/DESERVE more time with a favorite or new tool than others (usually when I try and like a new method with a new tool.)

 

And then I swing back to wanting sufficient time with my gun, resent the intrusion into what was the original or standard season and rail against the very thing I had just tried.

 

I do get angry when one segment of the hunting community, be it gun, bow, x-bow, small game vs large game hunters, try (and often succeed) to expand "their" season at the expense of others.  Especially when the "others" season came or was established first and the "new comers" try to take part of it away for themselves.

 

This can be seen in the "special early and late" seasons for muzzleloaders and bow.  Both seasons were originally established as primitive weapon seasons to augment the regular season and now have become primary seasons due to the advancement of technologies in each.

 

And then, while technology advances, some segments want to "freeze" the evolution (here compound hunters of which I am one against the crossbow also of which I am one).

 

Looking to other states, some blackpower in-lines, sight systems and powders, substitute and smokeless, have been banned, stopping the evolution of that arms use at a certain point.

 

Further, some of this can be attributed to the allocation of our deer herds through deer management permits, antler restrictions, etc.

 

For example, I really do not like the fact that a youth can harvest any 3" on one side buck for I think it is 4 years? 12-16yrs old, before they have to follow the antler restriction rules.  I fully understand the need for youth recruitment (and fully  support the Columbus day weekend deer and early pheasant hunts) but feel really bad for the older 17yrs+ hunter, women and men getting into hunting at a later stage of life, 20's 30' 40'setc. and have to sit and watch the same non AR eligible buck walk by year after year before they can take the first buck of their lives (let them take that first non-AR buck, report it and then have to comply).

 

So, having gotten pretty far down the line with this, Yes I sometimes do feel the "its my deer" syndrome preceding and even encroaching into the regular season at both ends.

 

And the same things can be said for the big game vs small game/turkey seasons.  Neither is more important than the other.  Some of those seasons are the "most important" season to some of us be it deer hunters, turkey hunters, gun dog owners, etc.

 

I guess I am long winded (Very) but hope this is the type of response and discussion you were looking for and that I did not go too far afield.

 

I too get a little selfish about "my deer" and "my season" and do not know what we all can do together (other than respect each other and share equally before we lose it all) to maintain a happy balance and stop all the territorial bickering.

 

Please let's keep this thread a polite and rational discussion as Doc wanted it.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Jaeger

[NYBowhunter]

Where do people find the time to come up with this stuff, jeez....just hunt and be happy!!!!! The only outcome of these topics is negative and in most cases will pit hunter against hunter. Its hunting season aren't there better topics to discuss like the rut,etc..hey Doc stop stirring the pot, get yourself a crossbow and get out there, its fun!!!

[nyantler]

I think there needs to be a division between the silent killing and the "guns-a-blazing" season. I have always thought things were set up just fine to accommodate both styles. Having said that, I also think there is an element of the bow hunting population that has an elitist attitude. But overall, it is a small (yet loud) percentage of all the bow hunters in NY. I think we can put the "selfish" label in any of the segments. It is part of the human condition and should be expected... it will always be that way. The trick is for hunters to start paying more attention to what they are doing and stop worrying about how others  do it. But unfortunately, being up in everyone else's business is part of the human condition as well. Frankly, I like separating myself from all the BS and focusing on just enjoying myself while I'm in the woods and not worrying about what others are doing unless it directly affects my safety. Maybe some would even call that selfish... but it works for me.

[biggamefish]

I don't see it as selfish.  Anybody can join the ranks of the bowhunting community.

[Huntscreek]

I use to set my life around hunting with a recurve ,even during shogun season. I use to make my own wood shafts/fletch & mount Zwickey  broad heads. I enjoyed the challenge.   Bow hunting in Oct is where the season should be, never liked the late season. When the Compound craze set in, I thought the same way some are viewing the crossbow hunters. Now years later there are a lot of deer being ethically killed by Compounds. I think of it like this what's a Challenge to one is not to another, and you will see in years to come the crossbow will be right there, Now the State did not make a Special season for compound's and they should not for the Crossbow. The State needs to call a spade a spade, its a Bow not a firearm. I've Taken Deer with a Long Bow, Recurve, Compound, Shotgun and Rifle, all Challenging enjoyable hunts, at different distance's. I will be taking one with a Crossbow in the future. I view it as a different hunt using a Different Tool to get the job done. People say deer are going to get wounded, Man I've see wounded Deer in every season. There are always going to be poor shots no matter what you put in there hands.

[G-Man]

Well when I started recurve were it , then the battle for compounds, then allowing the use of releases, then fiber optic sights, then let off requirements, seems we over looked the upgrades in the long primate archery season.

Is this my deer my time, a problem , yes it is, I love black powder and would love to see the season expanded, but bow and gun are so long where do you put it can't go later as many bucks lose their horns end of December, earlier well bow hunters are out there!!!! Let alone small game hunters spooking all the game....

My personal belief shorten all the season to 3 weeks archery, 2 weeks gun, 2 week muzzleloader. .. with a week between each season. Oh wait that means no hunting during the rut... well the trend is to want to save bucks and make em.older and bigger, so that will definitely do it!!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Well when I started recurve were it , then the battle for compounds, then allowing the use of releases, then fiber optic sights, then let off requirements, seems we over looked the upgrades in the long primate archery season.

Is this my deer my time, a problem , yes it is, I love black powder and would love to see the season expanded, but bow and gun are so long where do you put it can't go later as many bucks lose their horns end of December, earlier well bow hunters are out there!!!! Let alone small game hunters spooking all the game....

My personal belief shorten all the season to 3 weeks archery, 2 weeks gun, 2 week muzzleloader. .. with a week between each season. Oh wait that means no hunting during the rut... well the trend is to want to save bucks and make em.older and bigger, so that will definitely do it!!

I agree!  Much shorter seasons and no guns during the rut. 

[Huntscreek]

The Rut can happen anytime. Like this year it maybe right during SZ gun, now we could still Bow hunt if we want.

[turkeyfeathers]

As a gun hunter only I don't take offense to bow season and I'm not out there. I could and hopefully will some day buy a bow , take the hunter safety class and be part. Bow hunting is stealth , no need to have the orange army pushing deer and screwing up your hunt as you try and get a deer in close for a shot. Yes , I'd like to catch the deer in full rut , see them in a more natural state but again I don't get upset at bow only season

[upstate]

Bow hunting without the guns being out seems fair to me. The challenge of bow hunting (the need to generally have them within 50 yards, accuracy challenges, etc.) should allow them access a bit early before the lead flies. I'm not going to get into the recurve, compound, crossbow discussion. Now will I discuss length of seasons here in NY, that's a separate thread. 

 

I tell hunters all the time that the excitement of bow hunting can't be matched. The deer act more naturally, are weary but not flat out running scared. 

 

Frankly I have a safety issue with guns out during bow season because bow hunters don't typically wear orange. 

[steve863]

I've been saying it for a good while now.  Hunting has become a very selfish game, and it's getting worse all the time.  Anyone who thinks it's not probably just hunts by themselves on their own property and hasn't been exposed to what's really going on out there or is very naive.  It goes way beyond bow season vs. gun season also.  You have people getting their trail cams, treestands, etc. stolen and damaged and this is being done by other HUNTERS, not by just some other idiot walking thru the woods.  This is all done to screw the other hunter out there, in order to make hunting easier for themselves.  We accuse anti-hunters for messing things up for us, but the truth is that we've messed up way more things ourselves.

 

[skully]

Then pick up a bow and stop being a ----- Doc.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I grew up gun hunting, got into bow at about 20 and ML about 18 years ago. I enjoy them all. I probably won't buy a crossbow unless it expands my opportunity to hunt, because, at the end of the day, I am not a bow hunter or a gun hunter or a ML hunter. I am just a hunter and will take as much time as they will give me to do it, I really don't care what is in my hands. all the seasons offer unique challenges and hold different memories and focuses for me. The bow season is a more solitary event. The gun and ML is more of a social event. I think because of the lone nature of bowhunting it is easier to stay focused on yourself, get wrapped up in what you want (in general). I grew up hunting in a group, a deer camp mentality. There wasn't the prep that goes into seasons now. tree stands were the exception not the rule. We didn't have this immediate access to others that the internet provides but I don't remember there being the hunter vs hunter issues back then.

[BigVal]

No

[Chef]

No we are not being selfish, I do not hunt public land much any more but I used to exclusively and let's be honest if gun hunters and bow hunters were in the same woods at the same time the bow hunters would not have a prayer of getting a deer after the first few days. It is very hard to go after alert deer with a bow! Although a compound bow may not be a primitive tool it is still infinitely more difficult to use than a scoped rifle. I believe that they should remain in separate seasons because not because bow hunters are "special" but because the use of firearms during the same season would make a already much more difficult task that much more difficult...... As to the placements of the seasons again I thing bow hunters get the warmest weather and more rutting activity to some what make up for how difficult the sport actually is.... Excluding hunting big bucks any semi competent person can set up 150 yards across a food plot or crop field and shoot a deer! Two completely different and great sports just don't belong being played on the same field at the same time

[Five Seasons]

strictly because some say the stick and string is more likely to wound than the firearm, then we should just start guns a blazing on day 1 right? I mean, it is about population control only right?

[Jeremy K]

The way it is now is fine ,hunting season followed up by pray and spray season.

[steve863]

The way it is now is fine ,hunting season followed up by pray and spray season.

 

 

Bowhunters surely aren't going to get much sympathy from gun hunters with statements like that.   Just saying.  There are spray and pray gun hunters and then there are bowhunters who stick ten deer for every one they put down for keeps.  What can I tell you?  I've said it before, the percentage of idiots in the hunting world far exceeds most other pastimes.  I think there can be NO denying that unfortunately.

[Jeremy K]

Bowhunters surely aren't going to get much sympathy from gun hunters with statements like that. Just saying. There are spray and pray gun hunters and then there are bowhunters who stick ten deer for every one they put down for keeps. What can I tell you? I've said it before, the percentage of idiots in the hunting world far exceeds most other pastimes. I think there can be NO denying that unfortunately.

Did I use the wrong wording? I think the seasons are fine the way they are ,what would be the need to change anything. The majority of gun hunters only go out for opening weekend anyway.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The Rut can happen anytime. Like this year it maybe right during SZ gun, now we could still Bow hunt if we want.

 

The peak of the rut is happening before gun season, you can be assured of that.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I dont see it as selfishness. Archery (whether it be recurve, compound or crossbow) is a more demanding and difficult style of hunting, and it requires that the deer be less skittish, so leaving the season before the main gun season makes sense and really is fair. I wont get into season lengths, but gun season accounts for the vast majority of deer killed, both bucks and does, so I dont honestly see what the gripe is.

 

If the argument is about who gets the first crack at the big bucks, well, let me tell you, between all of the farms I hunt, and all of the long time bow hunters that hunt them, I cant remember the last time one of the mature bucks was taken during bow. They all fall during gun season, and we arent bow hunters that only go out once or twice a season. We all seem to get close, but sealing the deal is a different story.

 

Just my opinion and experience.

 

Speaking of which, I love bow season, but Ive had about enough of the bow season frustrations for one year. Im really looking forward to gun season at this point.

[Huntscreek]

The peak of the rut is happening before gun season, you can be assured of that.

I killed many a deer 10/24-10/31, if the Rut fell right the were done by Gun. I also seen years like this where it fell the end of Bow beginning of Gun in the Southern Zone. The Dates set by DEC don't ensure the Rut, Nature does.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I killed many a deer 10/24-10/31, if the Rut fell right the were done by Gun. I also seen years like this where it fell the end of Bow beginning of Gun in the Southern Zone. The Dates set by DEC don't ensure the Rut, Nature does.

 

Oh I know. Ive been out all bow season, and the main part of the rut this year will have gone by before gun season starts. Im not saying the hunting wont be good. Ive killed the vast majority of my deer after the rut.