Selfishness

[DirtTime]

I feel the seasons are fine the way they are. I also don't see a reason why crossbows can't be used for the entire archery season, they are a form of bow after all.

ML's? Nope, no place for them in the archery season. They are a firearm. Leave them in the season they are allowed in currently.

 

I don't see it as actual "selfishness". Bow hunters being "Elitist"? Maybe. But, archery is a difficult way to hunt. You have to be dedicated to it, and have the patience of a rock. Stalking or still hunting with a bow will be the toughest thing you can do.

 

Gun hunters being selfish? Maybe. If you only gun hunt the season can be short. Especially if you only have access to the SZ. So I can see why some might have issues. After all, you can hunt with a bow during the regular season, but no guns in the bow season.

 

I love hunting, and I love to hunt anything and everything I can take legally. Rabbit, squirrel, turkey, and next year duck. I started scouting a state forest in the SZ a few weeks ago that I used to hunt hard ever year. I planned on shooting squirrels, but I didn't. I didn't want to screw a hunt for a bow hunter that might be out there. I have to get over that. I have my license, and if I want to shoot small game during the bow season I should be able to without the thought of having a bow hunter rip into me for "ruining" their hunt.

 

I am lucky in that I live 20 minutes from the NZ/SZ border and get to hunt both. NZ is primarily private land, and SZ is public/state land.

 

I doubt there will ever be seasons or laws that make everyone 100% happy. I hunted with a bow only last year, and this year rifle only. Next year both. I have no want or need to use the rifle next year in my bow hunting season.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I feel the seasons are fine the way they are. I also don't see a reason why crossbows can't be used for the entire archery season, they are a form of bow after all.

ML's? Nope, no place for them in the archery season. They are a firearm. Leave them in the season they are allowed in currently.

 

I don't see it as actual "selfishness". Bow hunters being "Elitist"? Maybe. But, archery is a difficult way to hunt. You have to be dedicated to it, and have the patience of a rock. Stalking or still hunting with a bow will be the toughest thing you can do.

 

Gun hunters being selfish? Maybe. If you only gun hunt the season can be short. Especially if you only have access to the SZ. So I can see why some might have issues. After all, you can hunt with a bow during the regular season, but no guns in the bow season.

 

I love hunting, and I love to hunt anything and everything I can take legally. Rabbit, squirrel, turkey, and next year duck. I started scouting a state forest in the SZ a few weeks ago that I used to hunt hard ever year. I planned on shooting squirrels, but I didn't. I didn't want to screw a hunt for a bow hunter that might be out there. I have to get over that. I have my license, and if I want to shoot small game during the bow season I should be able to without the thought of having a bow hunter rip into me for "ruining" their hunt.

 

I am lucky in that I live 20 minutes from the NZ/SZ border and get to hunt both. NZ is primarily private land, and SZ is public/state land.

 

I doubt there will ever be seasons or laws that make everyone 100% happy. I hunted with a bow only last year, and this year rifle only. Next year both. I have no want or need to use the rifle next year in my bow hunting season.

I really think some of the history behind Doc's original post is the big gun the DEC is holding to the heads of the hunters in the over populated areas (bow hunters specifically) They have said the ML's WILL be used in an early season if the mystery population  numbers are not reduced  and it will impact the bow hunters, likely will not raise the hackles of the gun hunters , The general thought I keep hearing is DEC will use this as step one to just over run bow season with firearms. Personally I don't see that happening but I thought there would have been more resistance to passing the Safe Act as well.  

 

I know the NZ is a far different animal than the SZ but I hunt the ML season up there. It is the last week of bow and just before the regular firearms. I really don't hear that much shooting but then again opening of regular season sounds very different in those two places.  I have said it in other threads and I don't understand why the DEC can't see it. If there needs to be action taken in specific areas you EXPAND opportunity and you avoid this in fighting about squeezing into others' seasons.

[wolc123]

Having a separate archery season makes sense because deer are less skittish in areas that get moderate hunting pressure, without the noise of the gunshots.   Even ML's would take that "silent" advantage away.   Having the "silent" season, followed by the "loud" season allows for more deer to be killed by hunters overall, so it is actually the opposite of selfish to keep the guns out of archery season.   The result of one "all-inclusive" season would be less deer total killed by hunters and more killed by coyotes, dogs and automobiles.     

 

Selfishness is evident within the archery segment from those who feel that the weak, young, old, disabled, or "time-challenged" folks have no business in "their woods, at "their" special time.   I could never grasp the mentality of wanting to make it more difficult to kill a deer.   That seems selfish to me, at the expense of the deer.   They deserve to be killed quickly and efficiently.   It is hard to argue that a compound is not more efficient than a recurve or a longbow.   The crossbow can take that efficiency to another level due to the elimination of the need to draw with the deer in close, and the ability to shoot from a rest with telescopic sights.  

 

Even though I don't agree with the concept of increasing the challenge required to kill a deer, I support the continued right of those willing and able to put in the extra time and effort to do so.   Longbows and recurves should always be legal during archery season.   I don't expect the elitist bowhunters to ever support letting the crossbow in.   The saving grace is that they are a tiny minority of the hunting community and in this country, the majority gets their way.   We got to keep up the fight until we get full inclusion for the crossbow  however.          

Edited November 11, 2015 by wolc123

[Doc]

I really think some of the history behind Doc's original post is the big gun the DEC is holding to the heads of the hunters in the over populated areas (bow hunters specifically) They have said the ML's WILL be used in an early season if the mystery population  numbers are not reduced  and it will impact the bow hunters, likely will not raise the hackles of the gun hunters , The general thought I keep hearing is DEC will use this as step one to just over run bow season with firearms. Personally I don't see that happening but I thought there would have been more resistance to passing the Safe Act as well.  

 

I know the NZ is a far different animal than the SZ but I hunt the ML season up there. It is the last week of bow and just before the regular firearms. I really don't hear that much shooting but then again opening of regular season sounds very different in those two places.  I have said it in other threads and I don't understand why the DEC can't see it. If there needs to be action taken in specific areas you EXPAND opportunity and you avoid this in fighting about squeezing into others' seasons.

You have zeroed in on my concern exactly. I know that the DEC is determined to get more efficient weapons into a season that they consider a "throw-away" in terms of meeting their deer harvest wants. Yes they tried once a decade ago to cram an early muzzleloader season into bow season territory and failed. They are currently working an end-run in a few WMUs to force an early muzzleloader season (perhaps even a concurrent one). And I am completely convinced that it is simply a matter of time before the debate begins in full. I am also anticipating another huge bowhunter uprising trying to keep bow season for bows. And I am anticipating hearing the same shrill allegations of "selfishness", and "elitism", and all the other whinings that have worked so well in the past for those that would insert themselves into the bow seasons.

 

And so, I am looking specifically at those allegations and knowing what's coming, I am trying to determine whether defending the content of these special seasons does indeed constitute selfishness and elitism.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You have zeroed in on my concern exactly. I know that the DEC is determined to get more efficient weapons into a season that they consider a "throw-away" in terms of meeting their deer harvest wants. Yes they tried once a decade ago to cram an early muzzleloader season into bow season territory and failed. They are currently working an end-run in a few WMUs to force an early muzzleloader season (perhaps even a concurrent one). And I am completely convinced that it is simply a matter of time before the debate begins in full. I am also anticipating another huge bowhunter uprising trying to keep bow season for bows. And I am anticipating hearing the same shrill allegations of "selfishness", and "elitism", and all the other whinings that have worked so well in the past for those that would insert themselves into the bow seasons.

And so, I am looking specifically at those allegations and knowing what's coming, I am trying to determine whether defending the content of these special seasons does indeed constitute selfishness and elitism.

Doc. It would take a lot of trust that I don't have in NY government to stand behind them to implement the use of a gun for the part or entire bow season. Even under the guise of a management tool in these high population areas when they haven't exhausted other possibilities. It is an enjoyment concern for me, a hunting heritage concern. And it does need to be preserved. I don't this k that is selfish or elitist. As I said before , I hunt. If they offered an additional spear season I would take it up. To me they need to expand opportunities and failing that, the right move is antler less only with the GUNS and that should be in a portion (first) it the entire (last) gun season. It only makes sense because of the efficiency of the weapon

[knehrke]

I think that you could apply Doc's concern about exclusivity to almost anything.

 

Let me make an example: youth sports. Why should we exclude grown men from participating in junior varsity football? After all, don't they have just as much right to play? I mean, yeah, they have their own leagues, but how can we be so selfish as to say that there's a league they can't play in. It's their right, isn't it? Or is it?

 

The point here is that there are sometimes clear divisions for very specific reasons. Our obligation as rational people is to ask whether these reasons are valid. It would be unfair to bow hunters to have gun hunters in the woods at the same time. As well as unsafe. Hence, the ethical reasoning supports a separation of seasons. This is not exclusivity or selfishness. Bow hunting is an ADDITIONAL opportunity for someone to be in the woods, and it certainly doesn't impinge on the very long gun season here in NY.

 

And let's be honest...there's a bunch of hunters who take advantage of opening day and never set foot in the woods again. So long as they have their day in the sun, all's good. They don't want the gun season diffused any more than bow hunters.

 

My two cents.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The point here is that there are sometimes clear divisions for very specific reasons. Our obligation as rational people is to ask whether these reasons are valid. It would be unfair to bow hunters to have gun hunters in the woods at the same time. As well as unsafe..

I will point out however that in the NZ the bow hunters are in the woods with the ML hunters for a week and I haven't heard of a case of a bow hunter being shot by a ML hunter.

[Core]

But you see, "just the way things are" is basically telling gun hunters that bow season is "our" season, and no deer-guns are welcome. That is the point of this thread. As long as we have any "special seasons", there will always be exclusion, and some very adamant exclusion. And that can be defined as the root of selfishness. We do become protective of our seasons. I am an avid bow and gun hunter ... both weapons. But as a bowhunter, I am essentially saying to gun deer hunters, "Get the hell out of the bowhunting woods with your rifles and shotguns. This is our time to hunt and you are not invited". To me that sounds like a selfish attitude, but I believe it is one that is shared by the overwhelming majority of bowhunters. So my question to you all here, "is that being selfish or not"? Is it normal and natural for participants of one of these special seasons to try to protect those seasons or is there automatically a selfish designation when you try to exclude other hunters from your season? 

 

Anyway, I was just kind of taking the temperature of the membership here to see if everytime there is a challenge to the contents of these special seasons (as I believe there will be in the future), will this "selfish" claim be coming up, and indeed is that claim a true assessment of bowhunter attitudes.

I think you are right. It is selfish, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong or should even be chastised. Would it not also be selfish for gun hunters to be out starting on October 1 making the herd even smaller so that an already difficult task (bow hunting) is yet more difficult, when a gun hunter can probably fill his tag during the mere three weeks of regular if he puts a little time in?

 

What is the goal?

 

If a significant goal is to make bow hunting enjoyable by many, keep it as is.

 

If the goal is to maximize harvest because of deer population levels, open up gun to October 1st, give everybody 2-3 tags and watch the deer numbers crumple. Heck, get a grant from the NY state government offering $100 per deer head and you'd see everybody fill their tags and a depressed deer population for a while.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Core

[nyantler]

But you see, "just the way things are" is basically telling gun hunters that bow season is "our" season, and no deer-guns are welcome. That is the point of this thread. As long as we have any "special seasons", there will always be exclusion, and some very adamant exclusion. And that can be defined as the root of selfishness. We do become protective of our seasons. I am an avid bow and gun hunter ... both weapons. But as a bowhunter, I am essentially saying to gun deer hunters, "Get the hell out of the bowhunting woods with your rifles and shotguns. This is our time to hunt and you are not invited". To me that sounds like a selfish attitude, but I believe it is one that is shared by the overwhelming majority of bowhunters. So my question to you all here, "is that being selfish or not"? Is it normal and natural for participants of one of these special seasons to try to protect those seasons or is there automatically a selfish designation when you try to exclude other hunters from your season? 

 

Anyway, I was just kind of taking the temperature of the membership here to see if everytime there is a challenge to the contents of these special seasons (as I believe there will be in the future), will this "selfish" claim be coming up, and indeed is that claim a true assessment of bowhunter attitudes.

I think the problem here is the use of the term "our season". The seasons are not mine, yours, or ours they are just "the" season. Each utilizes the seasons based on their interest in that season. I do however believe that most hunters would forego using the bow if their was not a specific season for archery... if there was just a "deer" season I think the gun would win over most hunters as the weapon of choice. For that reason alone I would not like to see the seasons change much from the way they are set up now. Each has it's place and allows for different hunting experiences for all hunters.

[Doc]

I believe that the early deer hunting bow season is being jealously eye-balled by all kinds of hunters. I have heard the comments (right or wrong) about how the bowhunters are getting the first crack at all the best bucks and how the buck population is being thinned before the gunners even get a chance at them. The warmer temperatures make that particular time of the year a much more pleasant time to hunt. And then there is the rut component of the bow seasons that makes everyone want some involvement in hunting that time of year. And now we have the eager accomplices, the DEC, who can't stand that the population thinning activities are being wasted on a weapon of challenge. Some of this has moved from simple grumbling to actual official plans for implementation in some WMUs. There is no doubt that the DEC has definitely had a change of attitude toward bow hunters from neutral to hostile.

 

So there is definitely going to be some more action at some point where bowhunters will be forced to take on what will appear (and what really is) an exclusionary stance that will once again be branded as selfish and elitist. You can take that to the bank.

 

And so I have to ask, is fighting for the integrity of these special seasons really selfish or elitist? Seriously, when the shrill cries of selfish and elitist begin, is there really any basis in fact for those allegations? I thought a discussion of that without the heat of being actually engaged in an actual live bitter controversy is a worthwhile thing to establish. Perhaps the whole notion of "special seasons" is in question. That whole idea seems to generally incite discord and bitter disputes among hunters who would otherwise get along quite reasonably. Maybe special seasons are selfish and promoting of self-serving attitudes. It just might be that the hunting population cannot tolerate set-aside time segments for minority special weapons uses. Maybe the whole idea was a bad one.

[GrizzlySils]

I would disagree calling the varying seasons "special", with the exception of the Youth Hunts, which I support whole-heartedly, and the firearms season on Long Island.  There is nothing extraordinary about them, or anything that sets them apart other than the implements allowed.  That is to say, as a bowhunter, I don't refer to firearms season as, "the special firearms season", and conversely during firearms I don't refer to bow season as "the special bow season".

 

I would agree that a minority of hunters are selfish, e.g. "Crossbows are more like rifles than bows, so we shouldn't allow them during bow season."  I don't know that the percentage is any different than the non-hunting population, so I wouldn't describe this as an issue that is solely about hunters.  In fact, a number of anti-hunters come to mind when we discuss selfishness, as many of these folks are only concerned about their own beliefs.  So much so, that they completely ignore science and facts in their anti-hunting campaigns, disregarding the conservation achieved by hunters, whether that is fees/taxes or time spent on conservation issues.

 

On the other hand, I would say that the DEC is "selfish", when you consider that they are only concerned with the Deer Management Plan and maintaining the "proper" populations of deer.  Of course, the lobbyists from the Insurance and Agri-business are also quite selfish, their concerns are more about the bottom line than the preservation/conservation of our natural resources.  Keep in mind, this isn't a slam against individuals associated with those businesses.  I'm a banker, but that doesn't mean I'm one of those greedy Wall Street types (not that all of them are), I just work on their technology services.

 

Now that's not to say that I'm never selfish when it comes to hunting either, but its not in relation to upsetting the balance of fairness.  For example, I don't post my hunting land with signs that say "Call for Access", I'm selfish, its my land, I own it, and whoever is hunting on it is a relative or close friend, but not members of the general public who just call me.

 

I am concerned that collectively we are upsetting the balance of fairness when we look to exclude classes of individuals based on the implements allowed (similar to most legal definitions of prejudice).  Just to illustrate two examples, a young women who can't draw the minimum required poundage on a bow, or an old/injured man who can no longer pull back any type of vertical bow.  We're essentially excluding them from the bowhunting season, not because we required additional training, or an additional license, but because they can't participate due to physical restrictions.  If a person was handicapped, they are allowed to get exceptions to the general hunting regulations (pg. 16 of the current manual), yet we provide no exception for "regular" individuals who can't physically meet the requirements.  I think this is where many of the "selfishness in hunting" discussions arise.

 

I would agree with many of the previous points regarding the reasoning behind the separate seasons, i.e., safety, difficulty, success rates, etc.  I think those are valid reasons for the separation, and I don't hear or read of many complaints between firearms and bowhunting, mostly I read of disagreements during the specific seasons, such as the crossbow/vertical bow argument.  The only argument across seasons I repeatedly hear is that the bowhunters are getting all the big bucks before gun season starts, but based on the DEC statistics this doesn't seem to play out in reality.  I realize that in all probability we are going to see an early muzzleloader season overlapping with bow in some areas of the state, so this may be a contentious point in the near future.

 

Bottom line, there is some minority of people who will always be selfish (I just read an article that said 5% of the population were psychopaths that have limited or no empathy for others).  I also think its general human nature to look out for oneself, that's the natural survival instinct and displays itself in a multitude of ways in contemporary life.  I think we all need to routinely step back and assess our positions and how that impacts everyone, and most importantly how it impacts our deer herd.

 

In the interest of fairness I would suggest the following modifications to the seasons, feel free to tear this apart:

 

1.  Special Firearms Doe Season where required - 9/1 to 9/15, All Implements

2.  Special Primitive Doe Season where required - 9/15 to 9/30 Primitive Implements, Bows/Crossbows/Muzzleloaders

3.  Regular Bow - Same as existing dates, Bows/Crossbows

4.  Regular Firearms - Same as existing dates, All Implements

5.  Late Primitive - Same as existing dates, Bows/Crossbows/Muzzleloaders

6.  Special Late Doe Season where required - First day after Late Primitive to TBD date based on take requirements, suggesting 12/31

 

 

[skully]

Nothing is gonna change because of a few gun hunters are annoyed that they do not get first crack at a deer.  The seasons have been like this long before I could remember or was even born.  If you want first crack at the deer then pick up a bow.  If you think for one second they would actually  implement gun season any earlier ( which is to early and to long, just look at other states) it would turn to many people offand risk thousands of bowhunters not even buy a license......

Edited November 13, 2015 by skully

[gjs4]

So many genius comments based solely on "when I can shoot chit" rather than herd dynamics. If some of you got your desires there would be one last deer season then crying all the deer are gone. Also thinking some of the suggestions are PR to the hunting public via the DEC.

The subtitle to this thread should be "irony defined"

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Doc]

Nothing is gonna change because of a few gun hunters are annoyed that they do not get first crack at a deer.  The seasons have been like this long before I could remember or was even born.  If you want first crack at the deer then pick up a bow.  If you think for one second they would actually  implement gun season any earlier ( which is to early and to long, just look at other states) it would turn to many people offand risk thousands of bowhunters not even buy a license......

Or you can look at the threat that he DEC currently has hanging over our heads that they will implement an early muzzleloader season in certain WMUs if bowhunters don't behave and somehow figure out how to turn around the doe take with bows. Or you might want to look at the existing youth gun hunt that the DEC insisted be placed in bowseason. Or you can look back at 2004 when the only thing that kept the DEC from implementing a muzzleloader season then was the organized uprising of the bowhunters. Never say never. The fact is that I would say the odds are that it will be happening. And how far beyond muzzleloaders they will ever go, remains to be seen.

[ncountry]

I will point out however that in the NZ the bow hunters are in the woods with the ML hunters for a week and I haven't heard of a case of a bow hunter being shot by a ML hunter.

I know personally only a few that do not hang up their bow when ml season starts...

This year was different in my home wmu 6a( no does allowed with a ml) ..Typically when ml season starts it is the end of unpressured deer, unless you have your own private little piece. the deer become harder to hunt.

Edited November 14, 2015 by ncountry

[LuckyPickle123]

Personal preference. I personally hate fire arm season. Too many idiots out in the woods. All we do is watch our local herd make their way back home usually wounded. I could totally do away with that season all together but like that would ever happen. Skilled enough hunters can fill their freezer with stick and string

[turkeyfeathers]

Personal preference. I personally hate fire arm season. Too many idiots out in the woods. All we do is watch our local herd make their way back home usually wounded. I could totally do away with that season all together but like that would ever happen. Skilled enough hunters can fill their freezer with stick and string

Not trying to stir the pot at all . How many deer are wounded in bow season ? I know less than gun season but per hunter/bow vs hunter/gun the number would favor the bow hunter as wounding more ? And not denying too many idiots during gun season.

[ncountry]

I never get any support for this idea...lol.. But, I am all for

2 weeks traditional bow,

2 weeks compound,

2 weeks crossbow,

2 weeks traditional ml,

2 weeks ml,

2 weeks firearm..

Not having a dedicated season for each weapon leads to the ( more or less) the extinction of a tradition..

Very few, except for the diehards will opt for the lesser weapon.

[jjb4900]

I never get any support for this idea...lol.. But, I am all for

2 weeks traditional bow,

2 weeks compound,

2 weeks crossbow,

2 weeks traditional ml,

2 weeks ml,

2 weeks firearm..

Not having a dedicated season for each weapon leads to the ( more or less) the extinction of a tradition..

Very few, except for the diehards will opt for the lesser weapon.

I support that 100%.........that's the progression that I feel is right.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I know personally only a few that do not hang up their bow when ml season starts...

This year was different in my home wmu 6a( no does allowed with a ml) ..Typically when ml season starts it is the end of unpressured deer, unless you have your own private little piece. the deer become harder to hunt.

I agree but the point he made was it was unsafe

[The_Real_TCIII]

Our licenses are fairly inexpensive

I agree. For the cost of two rounds of golf we can hunt and fish for a year

[Doc]

I never get any support for this idea...lol.. But, I am all for

2 weeks traditional bow,

2 weeks compound,

2 weeks crossbow,

2 weeks traditional ml,

2 weeks ml,

2 weeks firearm..

Not having a dedicated season for each weapon leads to the ( more or less) the extinction of a tradition..

Very few, except for the diehards will opt for the lesser weapon.

Ha-ha-ha ...... share the grief and make everybody miserable by shrinking their season.