Shoot young bucks to let older ones mature

[nyslowhand]

Interesting article in latest issue of NYON (11/25/16) about AR by one of this forum's member, Buckstopshere. Article, actually more of an editorial opinion is entitled "Making a point on antler restrictions". Buckstopshere, please correct me if I'm interpreting your opinion incorrectly!

The crux of his opinion against any AR, mandatory or voluntary is that shooting younger bucks allows the 2+yo bucks to develop & grow at least another year. Very interesting concept which has some merit! Although the theory is somewhat counter-intuitive, culling the younger bucks to have bigger, mature bucks around your area. I've actually done this occasionally in the past if I've seen an overabundance of younger bucks on summertime trail cam photos or during bow season. Problem is, we all know exactly why we hunt, especially during the rut - those big, old bucks!! Not a lot of bow hunters would tag-out on a smaller buck and then sit out the rut or continue hunting with the antlerless/DMP tag only.

I do agree with the author about mandated AR taking away the hunter's choice or options. Do NOT agree with his disdain for the DEC's campaign to educate hunters about voluntary passing on smaller bucks to allow older (2+yo) bucks to mature or develop more. This is actually something I suggested to the DEC when they were soliciting input about deer management. Basically to not impose statewide regulations with no regard for the hunter's choice of harvest. Also suggested they (DEC) educate the hunting community about doe and buck management and let the hunters decide and micro manage their specific locations. This education campaign is not a shaming ploy as the author suggests, merely an instructional tool.IMHO, it's more of a - harvest what you want, but just so you're aware shooting younger bucks might reduce the number of BBs eventually. But by all means, enjoy deer hunting as you would.

Anyone else see this article? Agree with the author? Am I full of crap?

[First-light]

The camp next to mine is made up of 70% out-of-staters. Only 2 of them get doe permits because of land owner status. The first buck that walks by gets shot. This year they had 6 bucks hanging by Wednesday. 5 were 1.5 yrs old and 6pt or less. 1 buck was a big 8 pt. 2.5 yr old. I guess this theory can work because I know there are a bunch of big ones out there to shoot. They will have little pressure on them on a big track of land right by me.

[Zuke]

This theory might work in the absolute perfect situation... In a place where the land is made up of 30 or 40 acre pieces, it won't.

[growalot]

 Well that's an interesting statement..for as you all know I live in such an area and add to that nearly everyone hunts or they have hunters...they also tend to  shoot 11/2 and 21/2 yr. Olds...me included, yet you've seen my cam pics and we have seen mature buck roaming every year. AR's and spreads are not efficient for the purpose intended. Especially when you have areas of 1 1/2 year old 8pts. And wide racked young  and genetics of high narrow racked older bucks.

There is just one way to identify older bucks and that is knowing how to identify body size. If you must try by rack then you need to identify good mass not just points.

[Uncle Nicky]

I try not too analyze any of this to much, and just try to enjoy my time in the woods and enjoy hunting. If I had to classify myself, I would say I am against antler restrictions (like we have here in PA), but I will say we do have a LOT of bigger bucks walking the woods here than we did 20 years ago. I also know deer roam a lot, especially if they are on the search for food or sex, so the only way this can work would be to impose restrictions on a lot of land (county, WMU,state), small parcels just saying don't shoot the dinkers isn't going to work. My opinion is, if you want to shoot big mature deer, save your pennies and hunt in the Midwest, Texas, or Canada, and let the guys and girls in the crowded Northeast states shoot whatever buck they want.

[Trial153]

If that was the case then NY would be swarming with big bucks. Alas that theory is ridiculous .....

[NFA-ADK]

I understand the concept but I think it is flawed unless hunters are shooting all the 2.5 year old deer.  (Almost impossible!)  As a big buck hunter we pass most all young deer (treestand hunting) my buddy even passed a 3.5 this year.  By passing all the younger deer including button bucks we give the other hunters who just want meat or any deer a better chance at tagging out.  Buttons get tagged with a doe tag but we can't stop hunters from shooting them, by passing them we allow them to mature into spikes, 4's, 6's and even small basket 8's that many hunters are happy with.  Many young bucks disperse into another area so killing them does nothing for your hunting spot unless your food for the deer is low.   Same reasoning goes for doe, we do not shoot them in our big buck area because they are what draws in the big bucks! 

I have to agree with Trial153 if this was true we would be overrun with large bucks because many hunters shoot young bucks and then are done for the season.

This is the exact opposite of AR.  AR at least gives the deer a chance at getting older, if you shoot all the young deer in your area you would be eliminating future prospects if you hunt a large enough tract of land.

[Buckstopshere]

6 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

Interesting article in latest issue of NYON (11/25/16) about AR by one of this forum's member, Buckstopshere. Article, actually more of an editorial opinion is entitled "Making a point on antler restrictions". Buckstopshere, please correct me if I'm interpreting your opinion incorrectly!

The crux of his opinion against any AR, mandatory or voluntary is that shooting younger bucks allows the 2+yo bucks to develop & grow at least another year. Very interesting concept which has some merit! Although the theory is somewhat counter-intuitive, culling the younger bucks to have bigger, mature bucks around your area. I've actually done this occasionally in the past if I've seen an overabundance of younger bucks on summertime trail cam photos or during bow season. Problem is, we all know exactly why we hunt, especially during the rut - those big, old bucks!! Not a lot of bow hunters would tag-out on a smaller buck and then sit out the rut or continue hunting with the antlerless/DMP tag only.

I do agree with the author about mandated AR taking away the hunter's choice or options. Do NOT agree with his disdain for the DEC's campaign to educate hunters about voluntary passing on smaller bucks to allow older (2+yo) bucks to mature or develop more. This is actually something I suggested to the DEC when they were soliciting input about deer management. Basically to not impose statewide regulations with no regard for the hunter's choice of harvest. Also suggested they (DEC) educate the hunting community about doe and buck management and let the hunters decide and micro manage their specific locations. This education campaign is not a shaming ploy as the author suggests, merely an instructional tool.IMHO, it's more of a - harvest what you want, but just so you're aware shooting younger bucks might reduce the number of BBs eventually. But by all means, enjoy deer hunting as you would.

Anyone else see this article? Agree with the author? Am I full of crap?

 I would be willing to concede that the concept of shooting the smaller buck to let the larger one mature is not for every area. When we consider buck populations...age structure varies.  But, I'm a happy guy when I hear somebody tagged a spike or fork in the woods that I hunt, because I know one, there are so many little junkyard bucks, and two, it means that there is one less hunter to take out that decent 2.5 year old that now has a better chance to really turn into something next season.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Buckstopshere

[NFA-ADK]

7 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

 I would be willing to concede that the concept of shooting the smaller buck to let the larger one mature is not for every area. When we consider buck populations...age structure varies.  But, I'm a happy guy when I hear somebody tagged a spike or fork in the woods that I hunt, because I know, one there are so many little junkyard bucks, and two, it means that there is one less hunter to take out that nice 2.5 year old that now has a better chance to be really something next season.

Agree 100%  Only issue on LI is they can use the rifle tag also so the person can take a button (Doe tag) a spike and a big 10.  Still when someone gets any buck in the area I hunt I am happy for them even if it is one of our target bucks.  Good thing about LI is their are always mature bucks to hunt just wish they came on public land more often!  If the population was low I would want a one buck rule but on LI that is not the case. 

I also agree with considering age structure and doe to buck population.  Some area's simply produce many young bucks this is where I believe micro managing your area helps.  If all you have to shoot are young bucks most hunters are not willing to eat tag soup and want the meat.  Considering most young bucks would disperse it would not really affect the immediate area. 

I understand the concept of having a hunter tag out on a small deer so you still have the 2.5 and older around to mature another year.  Most people hunt this way already IMO, big buck hunters are not the norm.

[grampy]

Just my opinion . But common sense tells me if you shoot all the young bucks, eventually you will have very few older bucks! Or am I missing something here?

[NFA-ADK]

Young bucks 1 - 2 years old tend to disperse from the mothers home range so shooting some of the yearlings should not affect your hunting area unless you are over populated it might help give more food to the other deer.  If you hunt large tracts of land, larger than 500 acers then I would not do this because you could eliminate some of your future prospects. 

[CharlieNY]

Please read the attached link from the N.Y.S. Dept. of Environmental Conservation. I agree with the experts who know what they are talking about and encourage hunters not to shoot young bucks so that we can get a shot at some mature bucks in the future.

valoroutdoors.com

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/NYSDEC/bulletins/1725874

 

[Nomad]

I sure don't have it all figured our however, as I've said before I hunt a large farm with buck minimums , many others around do this to. My piece of the farm has a idk I'd guess 500 acre farm next door , that's largely all open crop fields . Any thing they kill is either running to or walking out of my thicket .

They shoot any buck , they're   great guys ,we let each other just cross over to recover or track and so on. I'm quite pleased when they tag out on small bucks because we have a lot of big ones around ,they are done hunting and the big ones are still on their feet.

There was a time we had way more hunters and most shot the first buck to walk / run by. Today far less hunters most are selective and lots of nice bucks . So a few taking young ones matters little around me .

Its like someone taking a plain donut and leaving the apple fritters for me !

 

[Trial153]

More likely hunter shoots spike. Wife tags spike. Hunter then continues to hunt the remaining season for a " big buck". No big bucks are sighted, hunter shoots broken up rag horn the last weekend. Hunter tags rag horn. Season ends ...all is well because all the big bucks still out there, albeit invisible. Rinse and repeat next season. Yea that's exactly why we are where we are.

[Nomad]

Well here's where we are ....is post more but ,many don't want to show what we got .

Edited November 24, 2016 by Larry302

[Core]

Since the second week of October I have been out hunting about 15 times. I have had one (!) single deer come within range during that time and it was a 1.5 year old. With the dearth of deer available to me passing on one would be inconceivable. I will never voluntarily do it unless it is illegal to shoot or somebody at some point grants me 500 acres of private land. It just isn't a luxury I could consider. Passing on small bucks is easy when you're seeing deer most times you're out.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Core

[stubby68]

34 minutes ago, grampy said:

Just my opinion . But common sense tells me if you shoot all the young bucks, eventually you will have very few older bucks! Or am I missing something here?

If you shoot all the big bucks all you have left is little. Probably 20 years ago seeing big bucks was not a big deal. They were almost common. People saw big bucks out feeding or one was killed and it didn't  become the talk of the hunting town. It was known of but not a big deal. Now when a big buck is seen or shot that is all you hear about and the guy who shot it was almost a hero. Back then people didn't care as much about the decoration for there wall the we're meat hunters. Anything got killed. Killing small bucks then didn't  hurt the population nor the sightings or killings of big bucks.

         Once so many people started hunting for big bucks only the number of big bucks being seen and shot went way down.  A few years of that and now it a big deal to see or get nice bucks. That's because they all got killed and each year what is considered big gets smaller. Kill all the big 10 points next year you have  all 8 points kill all them the next year's bucks are smaller.

          Funny how let them grow is what is said is needed to get big bucks for todays hunters,yet there are fewer the 20 years ago when anything was killed.

                We can all say there are tons of small ones out there and fewer big ons. More hunters t as king out little ones again might change that. Not all the little ones will be killed nor all the big ones. Leavening big ones for next year and letting little one get bigger for next year. No balance in shooting only big bucks.

[stubby68]

9 minutes ago, Core said:

Since the second week of October I have been out hunting about 15 times. I have had one (!) single deer come within range during that time and it was a 1.5 year old. With the dearth of deer available to me passing on one would be inconceivable. I will never voluntarily do it unless it is illegal to shoot or somebody at some point grants me 500 acres of private land. It just isn't a luxury I could consider. Passing on small bucks is easy when you're seeing deer most times you're out.

   that's another thing 20 years ago I never went in the woods without seeing 10 or 15 deer. That's every day. Now I can set and not see anything for days.When hunters were shooting anything we saw lots of deer. Over the years more hunters are focused on the decoration then the meet and less deer are there to be seen. High grading kills any species.

[NFA-ADK]

18 minutes ago, CharlieNY said:

Please read the attached link from the N.Y.S. Dept. of Environmental Conservation. I agree with the experts who know what they are talking about and encourage hunters not to shoot young bucks so that we can get a shot at some mature bucks in the future.

valoroutdoors.com

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/NYSDEC/bulletins/1725874

 

The article encourages hunters to pass young deer to let them grow.  Will this help produce more deer in the 2.5 plus age group?  You better believe it!  If you pass the young deer it will give your neighbor larger deer to hunt and will hopefully get a better age structure of the herd and doe to buck ratio.  This could result in more chasing and wandering of bucks to find a hot doe as many will be bread as soon as they are ready causing a better rut movement of larger deer.  JMO

Simply put if you look at the big buck area's of NY many of these spots have self imposed restrictions.  The hunters in these area's pass many young deer and it shows in the deer they take each year.  Just look at the picture above, bet they impose restrictions on themselves.  Care to elaborate Larry302?

[Steve D]

I just would like to make note that there has been some PRETTY NICE bucks taken in the state this year and I have seen a lot of them posted on this site. One thing we seem to be forgetting is the fact that Little bucks (with little racks) breed little bucks. Your bigger racked bucks regardless of age will breed bigger racked bucks.

 We have had a big bodied four point around here and if I get a chance to take him from the gene pool I will. He is a mature buck but does not and probably has not ever had a decent rack. Every doe that he breeds this year that has a buck fawn will end up with a small rack like him.

 There is a difference between shooting young bucks with small racks and shooting older bucks with small racks.

[Nomad]

Yes self imposed , and none of those are mine although one is of a member here.

Our co op is loosely formed and trust me many around the area  still kill,the first young buck they see. But I've hunted this piece close to 30 years and can say without a doubt I see more larger bucks then in " the good old days".

we also don't freak out when someone , let's say kills one with some ground shrinkage . Kids, new hunters are welcome to kill young bucks on our ground too .

We dont freak out when the guy next door kills a small one, we say nice job!

We'll still get ours .....

its just deer hunting, everyone take a deep breath and enjoy the day with your friends and family.

The member who's buck is on that wall ? Last year he hunted I think two half days. Years prior he hunted hard all bow and gun , all day sits . He said he didnt miss it .

the Mrs needs cream cheese... Happy thanksgiving !

[NFA-ADK]

Stubby and Core I understand what you are saying.  If you are seeing so little deer in the area you hunt, I would try another spot.  I understand some area's of the state have low population and a young age structure.  If this is the type of area you hunt then take anything you want but that will not improve anything for your spot.  Trigger happy neighbors will cause the same issues of low population and age.  Some things are out of our hands.

Big buck hunters kill very few deer in general.  Usually one a year if they are lucky 2 if they do bow and get real lucky.  (Not including doe.)  If you think this is the reason for low population I would tend to disagree.  These hunters pass more deer than many see in the entire season.  Now if you talk about the hunters who shoot anything and say they are the cause of low population and poor age, herd balance I would tend to agree.  

Think about it, if all the hunters in your area only went after  3.5 or older you would have 1-2.5's running all over the place!

Steve D I do not agree.  Genes help determine rack configuration.  Size of the antlers depends on food, health of deer and genes.  If that was me in your area I would give that 4 point a chance to get one more year.  If he is a big body 4 point and comes out healthy from the winter I would bet 100$ he would become a nice 8 or better next year, if not then I would say take him.  Keep in mind the doe give the buck her genes to so even if it is a 3.5 with a 4 point rack that doe could make the next buck she produces a giant. 

JMO hope I did not offend anyone, and hope everyone has a great day and happy Thanksgiving! 

I agree with Larry, it's just deer and today the most important thing is family, hope you all enjoy your family day and eat till you can't!  Then eat some more! 

PS: Sorry for writing a book, I was bored!

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I have no idea if this theory works but I do know in my area nearly everyone shoots the first buck they see. That gets them out of the woods and gives me a better chance of getting the big ones I'm after.


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[Buckstopshere]

34 minutes ago, Steve D said:

I just would like to make note that there has been some PRETTY NICE bucks taken in the state this year and I have seen a lot of them posted on this site. One thing we seem to be forgetting is the fact that Little bucks (with little racks) breed little bucks. Your bigger racked bucks regardless of age will breed bigger racked bucks.

 We have had a big bodied four point around here and if I get a chance to take him from the gene pool I will. He is a mature buck but does not and probably has not ever had a decent rack. Every doe that he breeds this year that has a buck fawn will end up with a small rack like him.

 There is a difference between shooting young bucks with small racks and shooting older bucks with small racks.

Case in point. Last year I passed what I would say was a 2.5 year old four-point. (I got him on trail cam. I was in the tree stand in the upper corner of the photo.) This year, that buck (IMO) got on the camera a year later. He is much bigger...I would say 3.5 now, shorter nose, big body. But his antlers are the same. Food for thought...all hunters here...enjoy your Thanksgiving dinner!

[wdswtr]

3 hours ago, Trial153 said:

If that was the case then NY would be swarming with big bucks. Alas that theory is ridiculous .....

Go to New York Antler Outdoors facebook page.  Be prepared to get your socks knocked off when you see the hundreds of giants from this year alone.   New York has some real nice bucks and in good quantity as well.  I do believe this theory is a good part of why there are so many nice mature bucks in New York.  At camp, surrounded by state land and a couple other out of staters camps, I see im- mature bucks harvested constantly.  The trail cameras and deer we have seen are very impressive.  Mature bucks are harder targets, most hunters wont, cant or do not know how to be patient or hunt them.  And that is perfectly acceptable to me.  It use to upset us to see all these small bucks being shot that we passed up on many times during bow, however it didnt take long to realize it took the pressure of the big ones and it also left them for us.  Over the 20 years being there the big buck numbers have grown and we still continue to see hunters around us killing the little guys.