At the range today.

[22Plinker]

So... I was at the range today with my .270, doing some consistency testing with different hand loads.  A young man shows up with an out of the box AR and a very expensive bench rest setup and begins blowing through a box of 5.56 like it was candy.  Then he opens another box and blows through most of that.  After making swiss cheese out of his 100 yard targets he proceeds to come over and start giving me "advice". 

He starts off by telling me that I'm hitting too high and I should dial my scope down about 3 inches... to which i explain what I am doing and that i'm hitting about 2.5 inches high.  This is normal since I am sighted in zero at 250 yards.  He then begins to tell me i'm crazy that there is no need to have a zero so far away.  Is ranting goes on for a good 10 minutes until I cut him off and explain that I have taken game from ranges 12 yards out to 300 and that I sight my gun in specific so that i can easily hit a target at any time between those ranges.

"That's not hard, all you have to do is just hold over and under a little." is this guys amazing and brilliant advice.

Now I'm starting to get more than just annoyed at this guy so i suggest if he is so great a shot (not so much from what his target looks like) that perhaps he would like a friendly competition.  Two shots... 1 at 50 yards (1 inch orange dot) and one at the 6" 330 yard steel gong.  No touching of the optics... just hold over the appropriate amount.  I wish I had my go pro with me to film this part but I went first...

Hit the edge of the orange dot at 50 and rang the gong at 330.  He missed the 50 by about 2 inches to the left and hit the dirt low of the gong.  He called me a dick, packed up his gear and left.

Now I didn't tell this story because I am claiming to be an expert marksman or anything.  I am just an ordinary guy who owns inexpensive rifles that likes to hunt.  I consider myself an average shot at best.  Rather its leading to asking advice from all you fine folks.  My question is:  Do you do anything to practice judging distances?  My son and I have a couple "shooting games" we do when we go to the range together that I think not only helps us be more accurate shooters, but is also fun. 

The first we play HORSE.  Just like the basketball game.  When we are on the outdoor rimfire range,  we take turns shooting at random things on the range.  All legal targets, not things like target frames.  "The light colored branch at the 125 yard bank... The dandelion to the left of the 75 yard range.  It follows all the same functional rules as the basketball game and we play so the looser buys lunch.  The goal is to be able to quickly identify and engage targets at different ranges.

The second we play when shooting at the 50' indoor range.  We place random sized pieces of green ribbon on the back wall...horizontal, diagonal and vertical.  We then settle on small distances from 1 to 10 inches and a direction (4 inches from the left or 6 inches from the bottom).  We do our shooting and then measure how close we were.  The one who has the greatest error in distance buys lunch.  The goal of this is to better estimate hold over and windage on the fly.

Does anyone else do anything like this?

 

[Doc]

I have a rangefinder that I use for entertainment while I am on deer stand. I pick out various items around the woods and try to guess the distance. I check my guess with the rangefinder. I am unbelievably bad at guessing distances. I truly do need a rangefinder if I am going to be anywhere near right.

[ny hunter]

I always find that the other guys way is always right and always the best...LOL..I would have told this guy thanks but I'm good..

[22Plinker]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

I have a rangefinder that I use for entertainment while I am on deer stand. I pick out various items around the woods and try to guess the distance. I check my guess with the rangefinder. I am unbelievably bad at guessing distances. I truly do need a rangefinder if I am going to be anywhere near right.

Funny I just picked up a rangefinder at basspro last night. We stopped to get ice cream on the way home and I was doing the same thing. I surprised myself at how bad I was at judging distances... although I still haven't ruled out the rangefinder being broken

[NFA-ADK]

That is funny.  I typically am solo at the range.  That's some good compensation for those distances.  Nice shooting!  Would have love to seen his expression!

[Jeremy K]

I'm plus or minus a yard out to 40 yards from shooting a bow . Rifle shooting and I'm helpless. 

[turkeyfeathers]

37 minutes ago, 22Plinker said:

Funny I just picked up a rangefinder at basspro last night. We stopped to get ice cream on the way home and I was doing the same thing. I surprised myself at how bad I was at judging distances... although I still haven't ruled out the rangefinder being broken

I wish I was more into rifle hunting. Many years of conpetive golf and I've gotten pretty acclaimated to judging distance pretty good. Looks like a sandwedge its 100 yards. 9 iron 155. 5 iron and its 205. So while deer hunting with a slug gun , ML or .44 I can judge anything inside 100 yards and hold on even. I carry a rangefinder but never seem to use it. 

[22Plinker]

43 minutes ago, NFA-ADK said:

That is funny.  I typically am solo at the range.  That's some good compensation for those distances.  Nice shooting!  Would have love to seen his expression!

All seriousness.  He just called me a dick and packed his stuff up an left.  Didn't even put the AR back in the box, just tossed it on the backseat of his truck.  Left his brass all over the ground and the two empty plastic boxes on the bench.

The handloads i was testing were a bit hot, pushing the 3100fps mark so the compensation at 50y and 250y was virtually zero.  at 330 was about -6 inches.  It was measuring just a hair under 3 inches low on paper targets at 300 yards.  I have no doubt the guy probably thought he was helping, but just made an ass of himself.

[wolc123]

Shooting games can be fun, but the cost of ammo and difficulty of locating it (I don't reload), can take much of the enjoyment out of it for me.    It was not so bad, back in the old days, when it was just me.   My daughters started getting into shooting just about the time the doomsday horders began scarfing up all the .22 rimfire ammo, and that really put a damper on things.   To correct that issue, we now do most of our target shooting with BB guns.   That is a short range game, but it can still be fun and challenging.   5 cents for 100 shots is the best part.   

Our favorite shooting game involves hanging pop cans by the clip from wires attached to a tree branch, about 15 yards off our back deck.   The winner the one who cuts their can in half the fastest and/or with the least number of shots.   50 to 75 shots is usually about what it takes.   The challenge increases as the can swings from the BB impacts, or the wind.   It gets real challenging when the bottom half is hanging from the last narrow shard of aluminum.   Shooting the clip off to drop the top half adds even more to the challenge but usually takes many more shots.   I have done that several times but my daughters are not quite there yet.

Not only is this BB gun practice extremely cost-effective, but it is far less disruptive to the rest of the family in the house and the neighbors.  My favorite gun to use is my younger daughter's $30 Daisy Red-Ryder, which I put another $40 into with an adult- sized stock and a "big loop" steel lever.   My older daughter has a  $30 Crossman 760 with a factory scope that is a little better for pinpoint accuracy but has a much slower rate of fire.   I liked shooting that Daisy so much that I got myself a Marlin 336 BL for deer hunting this fall.    It is almost exactly the same size as the BB gun, but weighs about twice as much.    I was pleased with the ease and speed at which I could pop water-filled jugs at 40 yards with that 30/30 Marlin after all that open-sight BB gun practice with the Daisy.   The deer should be in trouble up in the Adirondacks this fall.

I will admit that being a cheap-skate has gottten me into trouble at times.   Last season I hit a doe about 6" higher than I intended (just above the spine), and that caused me to loose a few chops and forced me to use a second finishing shot to end her suffering.   The gun was hitting a little too high on the range at 100 yards but I was to cheap to use the additional $5 ea sabot slugs to dial it in.  That cost me at the table and mad that doe suffer more than she needed to.   

As others have also mentioned, I like to play with my laser rangefinder while in a stand or blind, and range landmarks where I expect a deer may appear.   I can usually guess them pretty close under 150 yards.  I like to pick out a very small spot on an animal to shoot at, and knowing the exact range and the performance of the bullet/arrow almost makes hitting that spot "childs play".                

[grampy]

Now I know some people mean well, and some people are just decks! Sounds like your encounter, was with one of the latter. I've never considered myself a great shot, but get the job done in the field. And there is no doubt that many on this forum could outshoot me. While in the army, I was fortunate to share range time, and friendship with some sniper types just back from Nam. Now those guys could shoot! Highly trained, down to earth, and business like to the extream. A couple even went on to join the national team. But their quiet and sometimes humorous advise has stayed with me all these years. Just the basics, like breath control, solid "bone to bone" shooting positions, grip and trigger control made me a much more consistent shooter. I learned the basics well. So having seen the best, I can spot a "poser" from 100 yards away, and just humor them or ignore them completely, when they try to give me "advice".

Here is my last range outing with a new to me 270 before my shoulder surgery. Five shot group at 100 yards.

[ATbuckhunter]

I dont have any games, but like doc said I like to guess ranges in the woods and check them with my range finder. I can be spot on many times and way off sometimes. Thankfully most of the time I'm with in 5 yards of the actual range. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by ATbuckhunter

[Pygmy]

Many moons ago, when I  was a  mere wisp of a lad, I used to do a lot of woodchuck shooting...I got in the habit of pacing off every kill, and that has helped me ever since with range estimation..There were also a couple of familiar features at my home that helped me...From my back porch, it was 100 yards to the barn, and it was 300 yards to a hedgerow that was my Dad's southern boundary line..The distance to these features is still ingrained in my little pea brain and I use them for range estimation to this day.

Know it alls at the range ?   Been there...I usually just smile and nod my head and usually they get tired of "educating" me and go away..

 

[philoshop]

Part of my architecture education was a course in surveying. Part of the course involved the difference between accuracy and precision, something I was already well aware of given my shooting background. That would be a different story.

What I'll never forget is the day we went into the field with a theodolite, a very precise and expensive range measuring instrument used in land surveying. There were targets set up at various distances. The professor asked us how far away the targets were and the answers were all over the map. When he asked me, I asked him, "How big is that target?".  I then told him it was 230 yards away -- it turned out to be 238 yards away. We did this for almost two hours at ranges from 25 yards to 500 yards and I was never far off.

I spent a lot of time shooting woodchucks when I was younger and you can't hit them if you don't know the range.

[Jeremy K]

Next someone approaches you at the range ,give him this look ,I'm sure it won't take him long to go back to whatever it was he was doing.

[Pygmy]

It was the voices.....The VOICES told me to load my rifle and come here today.....

[rob-c]

10 to 40 yards I am pretty good from all the years of archery. I hunt with my super Redhawk so the farthest I shoot is 150, my loads are pretty warm so I don't have to compensate much. But I do have my range finder on me anytime I am hunting ..

Edited June 10, 2017 by rob-c

[rob-c]

And by the way the kid was the dick. Nothing worse than some know it all giving advice when no one asked..

[moog5050]

I have to admit, that sounds pretty funny.  And it sounds like a little hurting of his pride might be a lesson well earned and hopefully learned.  

Rifle target shooting is what started me hunting.  I rarely target shoot guns anymore though.  Now addicted to shooting hundreds of arrows a week to attain only mediocre accuracy at short distances.  It's a sickness.  Lol.

I can still estimate shorter yardages decently (inside 150yds) and anything longer, I probably shouldn't be shooting.  I always range trees around my stand for bow, as long as I remember the range finder.  

[Buckmaster7600]

Don't really have games, just an addiction to reloading and a 400yd range in the back yard with steel targets set up from 10-400yds. Once a load is developed and the gun is sighted in I never shoot of a bench unless it's to confirm zero.

When I was an instructor for a tactical shooting school we would get in the know it all type every week. We had a 2 strikes you're out rule. When we would tell someone what they were doing wrong and they would tell us why it was strike 1, after 2 of those they are on their own and wasted the 750$. These are the same guys that at the end during the final shoot "basically a couple different 3 gun stages" and their scores were no better than when the week started they would complain write bad reviews and ask for refunds.

That was the worst part of that gig was idiots. There are a lot of people in this world that think they know more than they actually do.


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[NFA-ADK]

Drives me nuts when I help zero in friends guns for hunting season and they still wont leave the bench rest.  I try to explain how important off hand shooting is especially when the moment of truth is only a small window that could be as short as a few seconds.  When I ask if they will bring the bench with them the reaction is funny. 

I use to shoot often till they closed the local range in town down and then ammo cost went crazy as I don't reload.  Past 7 years I have been back on the bow kick and shoot often when my body allows.  Now I just need to get glasses!  Arg!  Good news is that might help me see more deer, lol.  Great excuse and I am sticking to it!

 

[Pygmy]

4 hours ago, NFA-ADK said:

Drives me nuts when I help zero in friends guns for hunting season and they still wont leave the bench rest.  I try to explain how important off hand shooting is especially when the moment of truth is only a small window that could be as short as a few seconds.  When I ask if they will bring the bench with them the reaction is funny. 

I use to shoot often till they closed the local range in town down and then ammo cost went crazy as I don't reload.  Past 7 years I have been back on the bow kick and shoot often when my body allows.  Now I just need to get glasses!  Arg!  Good news is that might help me see more deer, lol.  Great excuse and I am sticking to it!

 

Getting older sucks, but it beats the alternative !

We must compensate as we age...I can't shoot a rifle nearly as well offhand as I used to, so I always try to get a rest of some sort..

I can still wingshoot pretty good, but I can't walk nearly as far ( or fast) as I used to...<<<SIGH>>>....

[Chef]

Shooting games can be fun, but the cost of ammo and difficulty of locating it (I don't reload), can take much of the enjoyment out of it for me.    It was not so bad, back in the old days, when it was just me.   My daughters started getting into shooting just about the time the doomsday horders began scarfing up all the .22 rimfire ammo, and that really put a damper on things.   To correct that issue, we now do most of our target shooting with BB guns.   That is a short range game, but it can still be fun and challenging.   5 cents for 100 shots is the best part.   
Our favorite shooting game involves hanging pop cans by the clip from wires attached to a tree branch, about 15 yards off our back deck.   The winner the one who cuts their can in half the fastest and/or with the least number of shots.   50 to 75 shots is usually about what it takes.   The challenge increases as the can swings from the BB impacts, or the wind.   It gets real challenging when the bottom half is hanging from the last narrow shard of aluminum.   Shooting the clip off to drop the top half adds even more to the challenge but usually takes many more shots.   I have done that several times but my daughters are not quite there yet.
Not only is this BB gun practice extremely cost-effective, but it is far less disruptive to the rest of the family in the house and the neighbors.  My favorite gun to use is my younger daughter's $30 Daisy Red-Ryder, which I put another $40 into with an adult- sized stock and a "big loop" steel lever.   My older daughter has a  $30 Crossman 760 with a factory scope that is a little better for pinpoint accuracy but has a much slower rate of fire.   I liked shooting that Daisy so much that I got myself a Marlin 336 BL for deer hunting this fall.    It is almost exactly the same size as the BB gun, but weighs about twice as much.    I was pleased with the ease and speed at which I could pop water-filled jugs at 40 yards with that 30/30 Marlin after all that open-sight BB gun practice with the Daisy.   The deer should be in trouble up in the Adirondacks this fall.
I will admit that being a cheap-skate has gottten me into trouble at times.   Last season I hit a doe about 6" higher than I intended (just above the spine), and that caused me to loose a few chops and forced me to use a second finishing shot to end her suffering.   The gun was hitting a little too high on the range at 100 yards but I was to cheap to use the additional $5 ea sabot slugs to dial it in.  That cost me at the table and mad that doe suffer more than she needed to.   
As others have also mentioned, I like to play with my laser rangefinder while in a stand or blind, and range landmarks where I expect a deer may appear.   I can usually guess them pretty close under 150 yards.  I like to pick out a very small spot on an animal to shoot at, and knowing the exact range and the performance of the bullet/arrow almost makes hitting that spot "childs play".                

Wait did this righteous man just again say he was to cheap to sight in his shotgun fully wounded a deer and the. Had to put a 2nd shot in the deer to stop the suffering... again you admit to making poor judgment calls that are either dangerous or unethical.. good job pal


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[wolc123]

4 minutes ago, chefhunter86 said:

Wait did this righteous man just again say he was to cheap to sight in his shotgun fully wounded a deer and the. Had to put a 2nd shot in the deer to stop the suffering... again you admit to making poor judgment calls that are either dangerous or unethical.. good job pal


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I have made lots of mistakes Chef, and that was my biggest one last season.   Yet another reason for me to be thankful for the all-forgiving grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  He paid the full price for that mistake, all those that I made prior, and all those that I have yet to make, while He was up there on that cross.   Thanks for reminding me of that, and in so doing, allowing me to bring Jesus Christ onto another thread.  Keep up the good work, and may He bless you with a good deer season this year. 

Do you also fish ?  Many of Jesus's disciples were fisherman.   They, as well as hunters, are very well positioned to absorb His blessings.  Please consider jumping over to the fishing section (where I just posted on a thread).  Maybe we can get a little more religion into the discussion there also.   Having God on your side is a lot more important that what bait or lure you use.  Similarly, having Him on your side is the number one consideration when you are looking to cleanly kill a deer.        

 

 

[22Plinker]

Chef and Wolc... come on now. Don't turn this simple thread into the playroom for a secret lovers quarel. Let's keep things on topic please. Love and laughs all around

[wolc123]

55 minutes ago, 22Plinker said:

Chef and Wolc... come on now. Don't turn this simple thread into the playroom for a secret lovers quarel. Let's keep things on topic please. Love and laughs all around

Sorry 22P.  You are right about one thing.  I do love Chef, along with everyone else on here and elsewhere.    I think he gets bored sometimes, after a tough night at work, maybe gets into the sauce a little bit and begins stalking me on the internet.   He does not mean any harm, and there is nothing I would rather suffer personal attacks for than my faith in Jesus Christ.    

Back on topic, I agree with those who are stressing the importance of marksmanship practice that is similar to real hunting situations.    Unless you are into woodchuck shooting, lots of time shooting from sandbags on a bench is not as beneficial.  For many years, most of my practice shooting was with a scope, usually off a simple rest, similar to those on my permanent stands and blinds, or leaning against a tree.  

This year I am getting into the open sights and more offhand shooting because I have seen many more deer while still hunting up in the Adirondacks the last few seasons than I have while sitting or in stands.  I modified that Red-Ryder BB-gun with sling mounts and I use the same sling on it that goes on my Marlin.   Getting your heart rate up thru some fast walking, then shouldering the gun quickly and getting off an accurate shot is a lot different than calmly shooting at a target.   Now I just need to add a couple pounds of weight to that BB gun to make the "cheap" practice a little more realistic.