Do You Support Crossbow Full Inclusion into the NY Archery Season?

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 minute ago, Buck_shooter said:

There are definitely plenty of them out there and there's unfortunately nothing that will change that but inclusion would be giving them a reward for being incompetent. And I don't mean to lump all crossbow hunters into that category because I know that is not the case but I don't think it's right to make it easier for someone who doesn't want to make an attempt to be proficient.

I dont see it as a reward, and Im not trying to praise people for being lazy or incompetent, but the fact is they are in the woods with us. For the betterment of the sport, Id like to see dead deer, not deer running around with arrows hanging out of them, giving all of us a bad name.

We have a neighbor at one of the farms I hunt that takes the most stupid shots at deer every single year. We have made alot of comments to him about it and he always has an excuse like "I torqued my bow." or "I had to shoot from an odd angle" or "I chose the wrong pin". One year, we had 3 different deer running around with his arrows hanging out of their hindquarters, backs, etc. The land owner was out riding his horse one day and came across 2 of them. We had a rather lengthy discussion with him about the fact that the neighbor was responsible for it, as he was ready to tell us no more archery hunting on his property.

Would a crossbow fix this guys problems? Probably not all of them, but if you can take the equipment and form out of the equation, maybe it would solve 50 or 75% of his screw ups. That would save alot of grief that we have to deal with from people that dont really understand archery hunting.

[Buck_shooter]

18 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I dont see it as a reward, and Im not trying to praise people for being lazy or incompetent, but the fact is they are in the woods with us. For the betterment of the sport, Id like to see dead deer, not deer running around with arrows hanging out of them, giving all of us a bad name.

We have a neighbor at one of the farms I hunt that takes the most stupid shots at deer every single year. We have made alot of comments to him about it and he always has an excuse like "I torqued my bow." or "I had to shoot from an odd angle" or "I chose the wrong pin". One year, we had 3 different deer running around with his arrows hanging out of their hindquarters, backs, etc. The land owner was out riding his horse one day and came across 2 of them. We had a rather lengthy discussion with him about the fact that the neighbor was responsible for it, as he was ready to tell us no more archery hunting on his property.

Would a crossbow fix this guys problems? Probably not all of them, but if you can take the equipment and form out of the equation, maybe it would solve 50 or 75% of his screw ups. That would save alot of grief that we have to deal with from people that dont really understand archery hunting.

It's a shame that a few bad apples can ruin the whole bunch and that's sort of my viewpoint as far as crossbows go. I'd be willing to bet that is true for many others too. Even though I know it will benefit many deserving individuals it also benefits the slobs and that's a tough pill to swallow. I have to admit that you make some very good points and I do agree with much of what you have to say. I can't say that I'm all for inclusion yet but your comments have swayed me to dislike crossbows a little less. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 minute ago, Buck_shooter said:

It's a shame that a few bad apples can ruin the whole bunch and that's sort of my viewpoint as far as crossbows go. I'd be willing to bet that is true for many others too. Even though I know it will benefit many deserving individuals it also benefits the slobs and that's a tough pill to swallow. I have to admit that you make some very good points and I do agree with much of what you have to say. I can't say that I'm all for inclusion yet but your comments have swayed me to dislike crossbows a little less. 

I understand your points as well. We just seem to look at things a little differently. Nothing wrong with that. If we all agreed on everything, it would be a boring site lol.

[wooly]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Would a crossbow fix this guys problems? Probably not all of them, but if you can take the equipment and form out of the equation, maybe it would solve 50 or 75% of his screw ups. That would save alot of grief that we have to deal with from people that dont really understand archery hunting.

Just another little spin I'll add to that.

 

I'd rather see a guy out there with a crossbow making simple one shot one kill shots on game, filling his tag, and getting out of the woods.

Opposed to the guy who's not as skilled or dedicated  forced to hunt with a vertical bow with a list of excuses while fatally wounding 1, 2, 3, or more deer a season before he finally gets a tag on one....or none, but the end result is still several dead deer that nobody will ever get the chance at going to waste.

If crossbows make guys more efficient hunters, then I'm all for that. In theory crossbows could quite possibly have a positive impact on deer #'s if you can get them in the hands of guys who aren't cut out for hunting with a vertical bow (such as the neighbor you mention).

[brownclown]

2 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I dont see it as a reward, and Im not trying to praise people for being lazy or incompetent, but the fact is they are in the woods with us. For the betterment of the sport, Id like to see dead deer, not deer running around with arrows hanging out of them, giving all of us a bad name.

We have a neighbor at one of the farms I hunt that takes the most stupid shots at deer every single year. We have made alot of comments to him about it and he always has an excuse like "I torqued my bow." or "I had to shoot from an odd angle" or "I chose the wrong pin". One year, we had 3 different deer running around with his arrows hanging out of their hindquarters, backs, etc. The land owner was out riding his horse one day and came across 2 of them. We had a rather lengthy discussion with him about the fact that the neighbor was responsible for it, as he was ready to tell us no more archery hunting on his property.

Would a crossbow fix this guys problems? Probably not all of them, but if you can take the equipment and form out of the equation, maybe it would solve 50 or 75% of his screw ups. That would save alot of grief that we have to deal with from people that dont really understand archery hunting.

in this case you are only addressing the "slobs" who are currently hunting with the bow (which i admit is probably higher then i would hope). I think most who are against full inclusion are much more concerned about all the new "slobs" who otherwise wouldn't be in the woods will be now.  Granted i agree with if they are going to be or currently hunting now i rather them be there with a xbow. But from my experience there are way , way  less people in the woods during bow then gun. I believe that is primarily  because of the difficulty in effectively/successfully harvesting a deer via a bow. This would not be the case with full xbow inclusion.

[chrisw]

I dont see it as a reward, and Im not trying to praise people for being lazy or incompetent, but the fact is they are in the woods with us. For the betterment of the sport, Id like to see dead deer, not deer running around with arrows hanging out of them, giving all of us a bad name.
We have a neighbor at one of the farms I hunt that takes the most stupid shots at deer every single year. We have made alot of comments to him about it and he always has an excuse like "I torqued my bow." or "I had to shoot from an odd angle" or "I chose the wrong pin". One year, we had 3 different deer running around with his arrows hanging out of their hindquarters, backs, etc. The land owner was out riding his horse one day and came across 2 of them. We had a rather lengthy discussion with him about the fact that the neighbor was responsible for it, as he was ready to tell us no more archery hunting on his property.
Would a crossbow fix this guys problems? Probably not all of them, but if you can take the equipment and form out of the equation, maybe it would solve 50 or 75% of his screw ups. That would save alot of grief that we have to deal with from people that dont really understand archery hunting.

The issue in your scenario is the hunter, not the equipment. You don't think this same guy would wound even more deer with his crossbow!? Putting a crossbow in his hands doesn't change who he is. He'll just be shooting more often and further. We can't continue to dumb down every sport so everyone gets more success. You get out what you put in... And the whole "my shoulders are bad and I can't shoot my compound anymore" people suddenly sprouted up pretty quickly once crossbows were put into archery seasons, don't you think? I know a few that shot their compounds without complaining and now that they can use a crossbow suddenly they can't shoot a bow any longer... If your stance is that crossbows are going to result in less wounded deer then why not get rid of archery altogether and we'll all shoot rifles?

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[WNYBuckHunter]

34 minutes ago, brownclown said:

in this case you are only addressing the "slobs" who are currently hunting with the bow (which i admit is probably higher then i would hope). I think most who are against full inclusion are much more concerned about all the new "slobs" who otherwise wouldn't be in the woods will be now.  Granted i agree with if they are going to be or currently hunting now i rather them be there with a xbow. But from my experience there are way , way  less people in the woods during bow then gun. I believe that is primarily  because of the difficulty in effectively/successfully harvesting a deer via a bow. This would not be the case with full xbow inclusion.

Well, I dont see more participation in the sport as a bad thing. I would prefer it to be participation by hunters that dont act like slobs. I know guys that would love to hunt during bow season but just dont have the time to properly practice, so they just dont do it. I wouldnt call any of them slobs, as they are ethical gun hunters. I just dont see a problem with a weapon being available that they can squeeze into their schedules.

[WNYBuckHunter]

46 minutes ago, chrisw said:

The issue in your scenario is the hunter, not the equipment. You don't think this same guy would wound even more deer with his crossbow!? Putting a crossbow in his hands doesn't change who he is. He'll just be shooting more often and further. We can't continue to dumb down every sport so everyone gets more success. You get out what you put in... And the whole "my shoulders are bad and I can't shoot my compound anymore" people suddenly sprouted up pretty quickly once crossbows were put into archery seasons, don't you think? I know a few that shot their compounds without complaining and now that they can use a crossbow suddenly they can't shoot a bow any longer... If your stance is that crossbows are going to result in less wounded deer then why not get rid of archery altogether and we'll all shoot rifles?

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See, thats the problem with you guys. You are the ones that always make that jump to rifles. Noone else does.

I already said that a crossbow probably wouldnt be the solution to every one of the guys screw ups, but if it solves some of them, its an improvement. Maybe being successful on deer will calm him down an bit and he will take less bad shots. You see, the assumption game can go both ways.

[growalot]

Yet I haven't heard all the complaints about the "hordes" of x-bow hunters in the woods those last two weeks. Mind you bows "usual" best two weeks..you just complain when the idea of full inclusion pops up...hhhhmmmm

 Does anyone remember a bunch of uproar last year during cross bow...I honestly don't...before yep...usually only when the coalition pops up...may be I'm wrong...

[Merlot]

OK if others want to use x-bow, but I'm going to continue working out to keep body in shape for my existing compound. 

[chrisw]

See, thats the problem with you guys. You are the ones that always make that jump to rifles. Noone else does.
I already said that a crossbow probably wouldnt be the solution to every one of the guys screw ups, but if it solves some of them, its an improvement. Maybe being successful on deer will calm him down an bit and he will take less bad shots. You see, the assumption game can go both ways.

So are we going to just keep adding implements into bow season until there are less "screwups" as you elequently label being a slob hunter... it's the same as gun laws, you start adding things and then before you know it you don't even recognize what you once had.
If you're passionate about something then you make time for it, saying you don't have time to become proficient with a bow is BS. They don't want to put in the work to do it. If you have enough time to hunt then you have free time, just because what time they have is spent doing other things doesn't mean they have none. I work with a few guys at work who dick off all summer not shooting or scouting and then I have to listen to them moan about missing/wounding deer or they should've scouted more. The biggest issue I have with crossbows is that most of these people didn't have a passion to pursue the challenge of bowhunting before now all of a sudden it's a much easier sport and they all want in. And in 5 years it'll be "well the neighbor next door wounded 3 deer again with his crossbow this year, maybe we should give him an airbow so that he's more successful and has a better chance of killing the deer." Where does it end?
I'll jump on the crossbow wagon with "you guys" if we take away 2 weeks of gun season.

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[growalot]

I'm hearing a lot of talk of deer woundings in cross bow...but do you have the proof for these claims...Now I can say....one can go to about any bow hunting  thread on any hunting site and there you will find a whole lot of proof to the woundings that happen with vertical bows. Perhaps you should leave such things out of the equation until you can show firm statistical knowledge of these cross bow woundings.

[wolc123]

On 10/3/2017 at 11:17 AM, Belo said:

the bow hunter is lone wolf. he prefers the woods to himself. he needs the deer to be relaxed and easier to draw in close. he doesn't view archery season as the fun camp atmosphere that gun season is. he loves each season for its own uniqueness. 

land access is and will continue to be our biggest problem as hunters. and you can call me every name in the book and believe my stance is just my own and that nobody shares it. but i'm a blunt guy. more hunters is not what the bowhunter wants. our leases disappear, the farms and fields developed into housing tracks, our properties sold or our rights lost or the land we want to buy is out of our price range. all we hope for is less pressure during our season to help us be successful. Adding a much easier, gun like tool to a season just increases the number of hunters. as simple and as selfish as that. If you want to hunt with and around me, put in your time and hunt with the same surgical precision i do so we the deer dont know we're here.

 

flame suit on.

I appreciate your bluntness and honesty here.   Most anti-crossbow folks do not come right out and admit that they want less hunters in the woods.  Some say that archery season was created to increase the challenge and they wish to keep it that way.  If they truly wanted to preserve their special time of "increased challenge", would not some additional hunters increase that challenge ?   I think there is a good chance that the challenge may lessen a bit with full inclusion, especially during the rut.  The reason for that is: the "full-inclusion" update also includes categorizing the crossbow as archery equipment, and requires the archery course.   My guess is that many will be too lazy to sit thru another 8 hour course.  The way the rules are now, anyone with a gun licence can hunt the rut with a crossbow, merely by signing their name on a little piece of paper.        

Edited October 4, 2017 by wolc123

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 hours ago, chrisw said:

So are we going to just keep adding implements into bow season until there are less "screwups" as you elequently label being a slob hunter... it's the same as gun laws, you start adding things and then before you know it you don't even recognize what you once had.
If you're passionate about something then you make time for it, saying you don't have time to become proficient with a bow is BS. They don't want to put in the work to do it. If you have enough time to hunt then you have free time, just because what time they have is spent doing other things doesn't mean they have none. I work with a few guys at work who dick off all summer not shooting or scouting and then I have to listen to them moan about missing/wounding deer or they should've scouted more. The biggest issue I have with crossbows is that most of these people didn't have a passion to pursue the challenge of bowhunting before now all of a sudden it's a much easier sport and they all want in. And in 5 years it'll be "well the neighbor next door wounded 3 deer again with his crossbow this year, maybe we should give him an airbow so that he's more successful and has a better chance of killing the deer." Where does it end?
I'll jump on the crossbow wagon with "you guys" if we take away 2 weeks of gun season.

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Who are you to judge people’s lives? There are plenty of people that have kids, work multiple jobs and have to squeeze time just to get in the Woods. It doesn’t make them any less passionate, it just means they have different priorities and responsibilities than others  let’s face it, not everyone wants to be or can be as dedicated to deer hunting as most of us that are on this site. 

Bottom line is, a crossbow is another form of archery equipment. I believe it belongs in archery season with the rest of them. Stop with the airbow, its not a bow, no limbs, no string. It’s an air gun. 

I would honestly have no issue with taking away some time from gun season, but it shouldn’t be given to bow hunters. We already have 7 weeks. I’d rather see a break between the seasons or a split gun season. 

[Doc]

11 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

See, thats the problem with you guys. You are the ones that always make that jump to rifles. Noone else does.

That is because that very same argument that you are using has been parroted by gun hunters talking about all the deer running through the woods with arrows sticking out of them. Their solution?.....End bow hunting and use rifles. It sounds very much like the arguments that say X-bows are justified because there are some bad bowhunters out there. If you want to really sell that point, then you have to agree that guns should be allowed into bow seasons because they are less likely to cause wounding losses. It really is not as big a jump as you are making out. The argument has been used before many times ..... by gun hunters.

Another thought comes to mind when I hear people talk about x-bows as a super weapon is the element of over confidence in the crossbow abilities. Those people who misuse bows are the same ones that would take ridiculous shots with their new super-weapon, their crossbow. It's not correct to think that those with bows are reckless and care little about the quality of shots that they are taking, but crossbow shooters are somehow more responsible for their shot selection. There is no real reason to believe that.

[Adkhunter1590]

No to full inclusion. Crossbows just don't fit under what I view as "archery". I'm fine with the way it is now with the last 2 weeks of bow but I also think crossbow hunters need to be required to take the bowhunters safety course. Idk why DEC would let crossbow hunters slip by the course but then open the whole bow season to them. Doesn't make sense to me.

[genesee_mohican]

I'm fine with the 2 weeks now but my major wish is that the DEC would allow older hunters or people with issues that no longer allow them to pull back a vertical bow to use a crossbow all bow season. I know a few guys that have such bad shoulder issues that practicing enough with a compound to be accurate is no longer an option, so they wait till the 2 week crossbow season. 

 I also agree with others that the DEC needs to require xbow hunters to take the archery course.

I picked up a spypoint crossbow last season and hunted with it a few times. I can say they are accurate, but a good rest is needed and I would say less accurate shooting offhand (for me anyways) than my compound bow. A second shot is about out of the question and seem to be less maneuverable in a tree stand. I found myself sitting there going through all the senerios where deer could approach from and wondered how I'd get a shot off with nothing to rest the thing on.......where I could easily twist and make a shot with a compond bow. They are heavy, less joy to carry and a pain to get up into a tree stand that has any branches.  Along with that, most bow shots for my set ups are 30 yards max and branches still deflect bolts so I don't see them as being that big of an advantage and it's cool we have a few weeks for them now.

[Hock3y24]

1 hour ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

No to full inclusion. Crossbows just don't fit under what I view as "archery". I'm fine with the way it is now with the last 2 weeks of bow but I also think crossbow hunters need to be required to take the bowhunters safety course. Idk why DEC would let crossbow hunters slip by the course but then open the whole bow season to them. Doesn't make sense to me.

I agree with you, I don't think cross bow is a piece of archery equipment, plus when you throw a hand crank on one and now people are not even pulling a string back at all. Personally don't care about more hunters in the woods, my wife wants one to hunt those two weeks. I guess my only real gripe about them is when they are called "archery" equipment. And that is nothing against anyone who does not have the time to practice or is disabled, trust me i understand having 2 kids. 

 

[Adkhunter1590]

I agree with you, I don't think cross bow is a piece of archery equipment, plus when you throw a hand crank on one and now people are not even pulling a string back at all. Personally don't care about more hunters in the woods, my wife wants one to hunt those two weeks. I guess my only real gripe about them is when they are called "archery" equipment. And that is nothing against anyone who does not have the time to practice or is disabled, trust me i understand having 2 kids. 
 

Agreed. I forgot to mention I'd be fine with handicap people being allowed to use them all season. Hell I don't care what handicap people use, could be a rocket launcher for all I care.

Everyone's gonna have a different opinion and it's gonna be based on each and every individuals situation. But I will say this, the people I know who are foaming at the mouth for this to pass, don't deserve the extra time in the woods. They are the text book slob hunters we all dislike. They gave up shooting compounds because they wounded more deer than me and you can count. But with a crossbow they think it's gonna be just like a gun. Which isn't the case and I can just see the wounded spikes running all over the county because of it. But that's my view and I'm sure not everyone has those types of people around them to worry about.

[Hock3y24]

Lets say for instance it passes, people up north get xbows and become proficient (places that are hard to get doe tags and people that wouldn't hunt with a compound). They then go out and shoot 2 does with there "archery" tags. Now the gun hunters are pissed off because they have 0 chance at a doe tag. Just a hypothetical scenario that folks could run into. 

 

[GreeneHunter]

The way things are currently seems fine by me .

[bugsNbows]

Perhaps we need to study other states situations that have full inclusion regulations. How has it worked for them? Have all the deer been slaughtered? Are the woods full of slob hunters? All of the "what if" speculation is just that... speculation.

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

That is because that very same argument that you are using has been parroted by gun hunters talking about all the deer running through the woods with arrows sticking out of them. Their solution?.....End bow hunting and use rifles. It sounds very much like the arguments that say X-bows are justified because there are some bad bowhunters out there. If you want to really sell that point, then you have to agree that guns should be allowed into bow seasons because they are less likely to cause wounding losses. It really is not as big a jump as you are making out. The argument has been used before many times ..... by gun hunters.

Another thought comes to mind when I hear people talk about x-bows as a super weapon is the element of over confidence in the crossbow abilities. Those people who misuse bows are the same ones that would take ridiculous shots with their new super-weapon, their crossbow. It's not correct to think that those with bows are reckless and care little about the quality of shots that they are taking, but crossbow shooters are somehow more responsible for their shot selection. There is no real reason to believe that.

I dont need to agree to some outlandish idea just because you can try to crowbar your point into mine. The point that I am speaking of has to do with archery equipment, not just any equipment, because its an archery season.

Crossbows arent a "super weapon", they are just a bow that takes less practice to be proficient with. The exaggerations that some of you come up with in your arguments are completely ridiculous.

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 hours ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

No to full inclusion. Crossbows just don't fit under what I view as "archery". I'm fine with the way it is now with the last 2 weeks of bow but I also think crossbow hunters need to be required to take the bowhunters safety course. Idk why DEC would let crossbow hunters slip by the course but then open the whole bow season to them. Doesn't make sense to me.

So, if they arent archery equipment, why would they have to take the bowhunters course? You are contradicting yourself.

BTW, I agree that they should take the bowhunters course, because they are in fact, using a bow.

[hunterdan44]

A poor hunter who takes ridiculous shots , is the same regardless of weapon used. Poor arrow placement will not be good no matter recurve, crossbow or compound.


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