chrisw

Carrying Crossbow/compound bow simultaneously

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4 minutes ago, growalot said:

I may have but,lest you forget..your done with my nonsense. It was long telephone call.

Can someone pull out their growalot decoder ring for me?

Edited by OtiscoPaul

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There is a spirit and letter argument here. Most officers will enforce to the spirit, which I believe would earn grow a ticket. And the letter would most likely get her off in courts. But answer me this... is it worth all the hassle and lost hunting time in the end?


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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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This is exactly what I've been saying and they keep skating around it. They keep acting like they can't fathom a way it wouldn't be legal...

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It is spelled out that you can't. But in all honesty if someone wanted to carry a shotgun with birdshot and a bow I don't think the law should stop them. But it does. It specifically excludes a firearm.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

"When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.." - James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

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2 minutes ago, Belo said:

There is a spirit and letter argument here. Most officers will enforce to the spirit, which I believe would earn grow a ticket. And the letter would most likely get her off in courts. But answer me this... is it worth all the hassle and lost hunting time in the end?


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That may be the nicest thing you've ever said about/to Grow^_^

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This is exactly what I've been saying and they keep skating around it. They keep acting like they can't fathom a way it wouldn't be legal...

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It’s one thing to be in the woods with a legal hunting implement hunting something other than deer. It’s another to be with TWO implements clearly hunting a few species lol.

I thought both crossbow and compound were equal anyhow so I’m not sure why you would need both. At least that’s what the NYCC tells me anyhow.


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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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Here was my exact email. cd2a29545b689fa8fdd63f505a132271.jpg&key=8d86f0fe5cde09b01061e691cb224c8d824cdca8fc342efbaa77967b21cbf6a7

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To me the email establishes the intent to deer hunt. I see that. I'd like to see an email sent asking if you can carry a bow and a crossbow to hunt turkeys or small game. I'd be curious that response. I'll send it tomorrow.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

"When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.." - James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

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25 minutes ago, Belo said:

Simple question to those who think they’re being cute.

Would you be ok carrying a shotgun and a bow in the fall? If not... how is it any different?


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In gun season you sure can , in bow you can't possess any firearm while bow hunting . That's the issue its clearly written you can't carry a gun while bow hunitng in bow season .

There doesn't seem to be any written law regarding Xbow , although I tend to agree that it would make sense .

I know a couple Econ officers I'd ask them but I know from past experience , diferant guys say different things , and the ones on the East end of the state are really messed up .

We debated walking in / out with loaded guns in the dark ,in deer season my guy said sure no problem , others asked Econs in their area who said no .......

I also,had one tell me I had to cut out the dates on my tag, I had " X " them in ink . The rule book said either are ok .

 

Edited by Stay at home Nomad

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To me the email establishes the intent to deer hunt. I see that. I'd like to see an email sent asking if you can carry a bow and a crossbow to hunt turkeys or small game. I'd be curious that response. I'll send it tomorrow.
Do you even understand the issue we're referencing? The issue was, Grow was deer hunting (with her compound) while in possession of a crossbow for turkey hunting. That is exactly what the email addresses. Does it not?

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 Culver here is one thing posed to me.." Here's the problem an officer see' s you leaving the woods with a compound and a x bow and a dead deer "  

That's fine they would see an arrow with blood fat and hair imbedded in the arrows.broad.head and 3 clean bolts.. It's impossible to hide such evidence. 

Now to be honest the issue would actually be a missing arrow and the obvious fact a bolt could be hidden..That said a deer could be killed left and a bow picked up and exchanged for a x bow..Yet they do not assume guilt to those carrying a cross bow legally during bow season to kill other animals...If nothing else the willingness to carry both weapons should show legal intent


The Kindle just doesn't work right and   I have decided not to feed the bullies and distracters...it's call the ignore feature. They only have power when fed.

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I am new here - feel free to jump on me. I am in law enforcement - though not a DEC officer. When violations are issued - they are accompanied by a probable cause statement in most cases. Just my guess - the DEC violations have the PC statement requirement (have never received one)...

With that said, it would be incumbent of the officer to state the PC for the violation and the judges decision to effect that violation or dismiss it. As several have said here - up to the person carrying the implements to determine whether the juice is worth the squeeze.

In law enforcement - we try not to make bad case law - it just makes the job harder. I can find a bunch of attorneys who would take this case on either side. At the end of the day - it costs money. So perhaps the question is better posed as - do you have the money to fight the violation? Municipal/town judges tend to side heavily with LE...




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In gun season you sure can , in bow you can't possess any firearm while bow hunting . That's the issue its clearly written you can't carry a gun while bow hunitng in bow season .
There doesn't seem to be any written law regarding Xbow , although I tend to agree that it would make sense .
I know a couple Econ officers I'd ask them but I know from past experience , diferant guys say different things , and the ones on the East end of the state are really messed up .
We debated walking in / out with loaded guns in the dark ,in deer season my guy said sure no problem , others asked Econs in their area who said no .......
I also,had one tell me I had to cut out the dates on my tag, I had " X " them in ink . The rule book said either are ok .
 


But the crossbow is classified under the muzzleloader regs. So I would see it falling into that same category. I’m not trying to be be combative, I think it’s a good debate. I just feel like this one doesn’t pass the smell test. And as you mentioned at the end of the day it’s probably not worth the hassle that comes with the ticket.


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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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Do you even understand the issue we're referencing? The issue was, Grow was deer hunting (with her compound) while in possession of a crossbow for turkey hunting. That is exactly what the email addresses. Does it not?

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Haha that is exactly what it says lol.


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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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I don't know the rule and do not pretend to.  IMHO, it is not "right" or ethical to bring both weapons in at the same time.  However, if there is no rule or law it would in fact be lawful.  My guess is, if there indeed isn't a law, there will be very soon.  Just agree to disagree, shake hands and let the rut begin!

 

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Roggs. Thanks for your input.. what I see is the real issue and or problem is the fact that several times people said they could not find such a regulation.even Albany is unsure of the actual written law. They told me that it isn't in the ..(Now here is the problem)...hunters regulations  book. Expecting hunters to know If they are violating a law when they look in the DEC ISSUED YEARLY. REGULATIONS BOOK in good faith to stay legal and they exclude it. What possible sense does that make? I  did an extensive search and now as you may have read Albany is searching as well,how can tickets be issued when the alleged rule is buried. I find it funny they questioned me a few times as to whether I was a lawyer or not..when I said no They responded you certainly sound like one is this about a case?..I got the impression that would have changed the entire conversation.


The Kindle just doesn't work right and   I have decided not to feed the bullies and distracters...it's call the ignore feature. They only have power when fed.

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Do you even understand the issue we're referencing? The issue was, Grow was deer hunting (with her compound) while in possession of a crossbow for turkey hunting. That is exactly what the email addresses. Does it not?

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It does. I did not go looking for the other thread until almost through this. But. My point was, absent a dead deer or an officer witnessing a shot at a deer, someone please tell me the section of environment law that was broken. Before anymore folks chime in about is being in ML season so it is a firearm. Look at the definitions of a firearm for environment law and tell me if you honestly think it matches. I am not asking a lot. Just a section for the violation

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

"When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.." - James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

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And as soon as there is full inclusion it won't be an issue. Since hey know it's coming there won't be a regulation written either


"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

"When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.." - James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

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I know the Dec officers I know would hassle somebody for coming out of the woods with a crossbow right now even if u were just hunting turkeys with it and you had no other weapon they wouldn't believe anybody..mind you there's allot of trespassers and poachers that we have been dealing with for years.... I wouldn't hunt turkey with just a crossbow right now it's asking to be hassled

Edited by silent death

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10 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:


It does. I did not go looking for the other thread until almost through this. But. My point was, absent a dead deer or an officer witnessing a shot at a deer, someone please tell me the section of environment law that was broken. Before anymore folks chime in about is being in ML season so it is a firearm. Look at the definitions of a firearm for environment law and tell me if you honestly think it matches. I am not asking a lot. Just a section for the violation

no, it doesn't match.....my guess is eventually with enough violations and inquiries involving it, it will be addressed at some point.

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It does. I did not go looking for the other thread until almost through this. But. My point was, absent a dead deer or an officer witnessing a shot at a deer, someone please tell me the section of environment law that was broken. Before anymore folks chime in about is being in ML season so it is a firearm. Look at the definitions of a firearm for environment law and tell me if you honestly think it matches. I am not asking a lot. Just a section for the violation
So essentially you're saying your fine as long as they can't prove anything? So try to hide your true intentions and keep hunting? Is that what you're implying? You can try to weasel your way around any law/loophole you want, that's still not what we're talking about. If an officer catches you in your scenario then it's up to his or her discretion as to where it goes from there.
The scenario is about is it legal to do it. In this situation, the hunter was in fact hunting deer while in possession of a Crossbow for turkeys by their own admission. So we're not concerned with how can they prove it, it was admitted that's what was happening....

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And I emailed DEC days ago regarding " additional tag " for transportation of deer shot by daughter if she's already gone home. No answer. Apparently they're all too busy stocking more mountain lions and ticketing folks carrying xbows and bows at the same time to answer me 

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And I emailed DEC days ago regarding " additional tag " for transportation of deer shot by daughter if she's already gone home. No answer. Apparently they're all too busy stocking more mountain lions and ticketing folks carrying xbows and bows at the same time to answer me 
Why don't you call?

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So essentially you're saying your fine as long as they can't prove anything? So try to hide your true intentions and keep hunting? Is that what you're implying? You can try to weasel your way around any law/loophole you want, that's still not what we're talking about. If an officer catches you in your scenario then it's up to his or her discretion as to where it goes from there.
The scenario is about is it legal to do it. In this situation, the hunter was in fact hunting deer while in possession of a Crossbow for turkeys by their own admission. So we're not concerned with how can they prove it, it was admitted that's what was happening....

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No. What I am saying is in Order for there to be a violation there must be a regulation or law broken. The opinion of an officer isn't a basis for that. Citing a section that is being violated is. It really isn't a difficult concept. I imagine that this dilemma will go away after inclusion but NY is famous for closing the barn door after the horse is put. Use of aircraft is clear in the regulations but what have they done about drones? I am sure there is some officer that has feeling and opinions on that one too but there isn't a regulation for that. I really do t care one way or another in This scenario. My issue lies in enforcement by opinion. If it is important enough that you want to arrest someone for it then it should be important enough to have it spelled out clearly.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The trouble with Socialism is, sooner or later you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

"When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.." - James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

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5 hours ago, Roggs2001 said:

I am new here - feel free to jump on me. I am in law enforcement - though not a DEC officer. When violations are issued - they are accompanied by a probable cause statement in most cases. Just my guess - the DEC violations have the PC statement requirement (have never received one)...

With that said, it would be incumbent of the officer to state the PC for the violation and the judges decision to effect that violation or dismiss it. As several have said here - up to the person carrying the implements to determine whether the juice is worth the squeeze.

In law enforcement - we try not to make bad case law - it just makes the job harder. I can find a bunch of attorneys who would take this case on either side. At the end of the day - it costs money. So perhaps the question is better posed as - do you have the money to fight the violation? Municipal/town judges tend to side heavily with LE...




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This right here ^,either way right or wrong if caught more than likely there will be a ticket issued. It would be your money spent fighting it.  The DEC rules and regs book was written so long ago it gives them a ton of leeway.  

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Not to ignite the heated Xbow debate... But you can thank your elected officials in Albany for creating the current legislation defining Xbow seasons, allowed weapon use for specific small/big game, licenses required and harvest reporting. FUBAR government workings at its' worst!

Stay at home Nomad hit the nail on the head! This is not the 1st discussion on this forum about how ECOs interpret DEC laws and how it varies per the individual ECO and situation. Assuming this is where common sense law might prevail.

The OP's initial post is very similar to driving 3-5mph over the speed limit. You do this knowing you're getting into a grey area and there may be consequences. Will you get stopped and ticketed? Generally not, but you may because it is the letter of the law and dependent on the LEO's mood at the time. Not to mention your demeanor towards the officer at the time of the traffic stop. Can you fight this in court? Sure, but there you're also at the mercy of the town justice's opinion of the situation. So.....

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