Deer management draft proposal recently released by the DEC.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I thought we moved opening day to Saturday in 2005 for the kids?

So why not make that weekend the "special season" but frankly I don't see the need now that the age limit has been lowered and opening day is a saturday.  That should be enough for full youth participation.

I'm not against the kids. I have kids. I'm just against guns before or during archery season which should be 10/1 until 11/19. 

So you are against small game, turkey and goose seasons? All of those occur during bow season.

[Chevy]

I thought we moved opening day to Saturday in 2005 for the kids?

So why not make that weekend the "special season" but frankly I don't see the need now that the age limit has been lowered and opening day is a saturday.  That should be enough for full youth participation.

I'm not against the kids. I have kids. I'm just against guns before or during archery season which should be 10/1 until 11/19. 

So you are against small game, turkey and goose seasons? All of those occur during bow season.

Who said that?

I am neutral on those seasons and don't expect the DEC to remove them. I'm just saying No Mas.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I thought we moved opening day to Saturday in 2005 for the kids?

So why not make that weekend the "special season" but frankly I don't see the need now that the age limit has been lowered and opening day is a saturday.  That should be enough for full youth participation.

I'm not against the kids. I have kids. I'm just against guns before or during archery season which should be 10/1 until 11/19. 

So you are against small game, turkey and goose seasons? All of those occur during bow season.

Who said that?

I am neutral on those seasons and don't expect the DEC to remove them. I'm just saying No Mas.

Nobody said it, I was just asking.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I thought we moved opening day to Saturday in 2005 for the kids?

So why not make that weekend the "special season" but frankly I don't see the need now that the age limit has been lowered and opening day is a saturday.  That should be enough for full youth participation.

I'm not against the kids. I have kids. I'm just against guns before or during archery season which should be 10/1 until 11/19. 

I ahd never heard that the Saturday opener change was for the kids. I did hear it was to increase harvest rate by gettigng more folks in the field on the opener. A lot more guys have Saturday off than Mondays. I have kind of mixed feeling on youth hunting days because I am not sure it gives them a realistic view of what hunting is all about (25% of my feeling). On the other hand I think, (even with the reduced age) the more controlled environment and any increased chance to get the kids hooked on the sport is worth any negative perception that this stirs up the woods. (75% of my feelings)

For you guys that are aginst the Youth and ML early season.....Have any of you guys taken part in the NZ rifle season?

[phade]

The Saturday opener was designed to increase opportunity for both the working stiffs and kids. The kids component was a big factor in that decision.

I am all for supporting kids in hunting. I just think this situation simply doesn't give them the right (realistic) circumstances. I compare it to playing football for the first time....with flags. Then the very next time you go out...it's tackle football....there's no weening period like growing up as a kid and growing into tackle footbal. It's youth hunt and then the real world hunt. It's kind of hard to put on paper/online, but I just think that when you think of introducing kids, it needs to be done in a thought out manner.

I think the youth weekend is just the "easy way out" without much effort or realism. It also doesn't require the parent or guardian to do what they should be doing....mentoring the kid in hunting....and sometimes that means swallowing an operning day or two to sit with them and show them the ropes.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

\I am all for supporting kids in hunting. I just think this situation simply doesn't give them the right (realistic) circumstances. I compare it to playing football for the first time....with flags. Then the very next time you go out...it's tackle football....there's no weening period like growing up as a kid and growing into tackle footbal. It

you must have grown up down state....up here we were all playing tackle football in the back yard in Grammar school...no pads...no helmets....come to think of it....mught be a big factor in some of my views...lol

[steve863]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if the youth hunt was implemented, but I surely am not in favor of it for all the reasons already stated.  Hunting is a pastime that you will either like or not like.  You might as well get a taste of how it's really played from the get go.  Sugar coating it, just to make some kids think that they MIGHT like it won't win them over in the long run anyway.  Plus there will be those mentors who will take the liberty during this nice and quiet preseason to "plug" that nice deer for the youngster, just to show them how it's done of course!  So exactly what will that teach them??

[WNYBuckHunter]

The Saturday opener was designed to increase opportunity for both the working stiffs and kids. The kids component was a big factor in that decision.

I am all for supporting kids in hunting. I just think this situation simply doesn't give them the right (realistic) circumstances. I compare it to playing football for the first time....with flags. Then the very next time you go out...it's tackle football....there's no weening period like growing up as a kid and growing into tackle footbal. It's youth hunt and then the real world hunt. It's kind of hard to put on paper/online, but I just think that when you think of introducing kids, it needs to be done in a thought out manner.

I think the youth weekend is just the "easy way out" without much effort or realism. It also doesn't require the parent or guardian to do what they should be doing....mentoring the kid in hunting....and sometimes that means swallowing an operning day or two to sit with them and show them the ropes.

Well, if you introduce your kids to hunting by waiting to bring them into the woods with you until they are legal age to shoot a deer, then you might have a point. If you are like alot of us, our kids get out in the woods for a few or many seasons before they can do the shooting, so they have a good idea of what the ropes are before they are thrown into the ring.

I see the youth weekend as an opportunity for kids to see and have a chance at deer that arent sprinting through the woods. It may well help to hold their interest better than sitting in the cold, only to see nothing right off the bat. It eases them into the sport rather than just tossing them into it.

[G-Man]

I don't see a youth hunt as an"easy way out" its still hunting! how many youths do the spring hunt for turkey? How many are sucessful?? should be easy end of april.. peak gobbling..no one else in the woods? I'm sorry but i dont see kids decimating the deerherd or screwing up the deer so that my harvest becomes harder.. Most people i know who take the youth out for turkey look for private land so as to give the youngster an "edge" but lots are taken off public land as well. I expect the same for the proposed youth hunt.. In my opinion getting a kid out in better weather will make him/her want to do it later in the season if they have a good experiance the first time they are out. Id ratehr be sitting in a blind with my 12 year old coaching him/her than sitting in front of some video game , being coached!

[growalot]

Sorry ...I don't care about the youth hunt as long as they have MANDATORY orange for all gun hunters...I do think that ML in the middle of bow season is foolish and as Doc says unless you hunt in a high pressure area....

The following pic is a good example...I am up to 28 stands and blinds on 72 acres....rarely do I hunt my stands more than 2x's a season...that being said...look at the date of this pic.....in the Lft hand corner out of sight....is a stand

[Doc]

I hate to say it, but I think all these special "youth seasons" are very much grasping at straws. I think that everyone is hoping the future of hunting relies on holding special introductory seasons. I hope they do some good, but realistically, I believe that they are pretty much window dressing, and really don't address the real causes behind the low replacement rates in hunter populations. I don't for a minute believe that kids have no interest in hunting because they don't have a special time set aside for them. The real reasons are social, and until ways can be found to re-ignite youth interests in all outdoor activities and a genuine interest and enthusiasm in nature, all the rest of these experiments are most likely going to be wasted effort. Sure I suppose there is no harm in experimenting, but the hunting community should not start thinking that some special season is just the ticket for turning things around. I'm hoping that the powers that be are using their brain power on more than just this feeble activity.

It would be nice if there were a few school programs that attempt to make outdoor activities "cool" again and other things that encourage kids to appreciate all things natural. It also would be nice to try to indoctrinate parents into appreciating the mental and physical values of outdoor activities for their kids and themselves. Hiking, camping, fishing, trapping, or just plain random exploration of nature all are a whole lot more influential in boosting the hunter numbers than any of the special seasons that anybody might concoct. Furthermore, I do believe that more kids were sold on hunting on their first visit to hunting camps where hunting became a social event than some other kind of special season where the majority of hunters are not allowed to gather and create the hunt camp atmosphere.

I guess what I'm saying is that I am getting a bit tired and worried about how everybody is pinning all their hopes for the survival of hunting on special youth seasons. It all leaves me thinking that after such a plecebo is implemented, everyone will walk away thinking they have successfully saved hunting and continue to ignore or fail to invent and pursue real solutions.

[growalot]

Doc..............

it has to start with this....neighbor hoods where parents let the kids get together for a good ole fashion game of Kick the can....hide and seek...kickball....soft ball...touch football...when I grew up that's what we all did...certain parents set out and talked and listened....but left us to just have fun....We didn't know it then but these activities taught us all alot....moms would gather us up and we'd hike to the Cansaraga Creek to swim...or hike to Stoney brook park........we'd take hay rides to Poags Hole and have camp fires....They'd even get a caravan of cars with us kids all loaded up in our PJ's and drive into the hills and park away from all the town lights to "look for  flying saucers"...remember that craze?....but it was just to spark our interest and imaginations...We'd sit on the back stoop and skin squirrels and rabbits....all these things were interconnected in sparking every bodies interest in hunting and fishing....but alas ...I fear those days are long gonefor kids and it's too bad.

[sits in trees]

Doc..............

it has to start with this....neighbor hoods where parents let the kids get together for a good ole fashion game of Kick the can....hide and seek...kickball....soft ball...touch football...when I grew up that's what we all did...certain parents set out and talked and listened....but left us to just have fun....We didn't know it then but these activities taught us all alot....moms would gather us up and we'd hike to the Cansaraga Creek to swim...or hike to Stoney brook park........we'd take hay rides to Poags Hole and have camp fires....They'd even get a caravan of cars with us kids all loaded up in our PJ's and drive into the hills and park away from all the town lights to "look for  flying saucers"...remember that craze?....but it was just to spark our interest and imaginations...We'd sit on the back stoop and skin squirrels and rabbits....all these things were interconnected in sparking every bodies interest in hunting and fishing....but alas ...I fear those days are long gonefor kids and it's too bad.

how charming, your a regular Huck Finn...can't you ever just state a freakin point without giving us the story of your life????

[growalot]

once again sits in trees...if you don't like what I write... or how write ...Then don't read it

You tiny minded little man :

[Larry]

    As  for the 4 day early  ML season you can thank the NYB for that they  made a deal with the muzzle loader association something to the fact they would  not oppose a early ML season for a 10/1 start to the bow season. That was a  year or two ago.

[First-light]

The youth season will be great. Why not do it??? We will have almost three months to hunt deer, we can't spare 3 days, sound selfish to me.

As being a solution to getting kids involved in the sport it is not. You have to have them out there all year. Teach them the ways of the outdoors, not just about a three day hunt. Involve them in food plots, getting the camp in working order, other game on the property and forestry. Mix all these things together and let it grow inside that impressionable youngster and you just might end up with a hunter. I just penned in the date for my mentoring duties this year. He will also be staining the cabin and plating trees in the fall with me. Might even get in some fly fishing also!

[Doc]

how charming, your a regular Huck Finn...can't you ever just state a freakin point without giving us the story of your life? ???

Ah, once again good ol' Sits sticks his head in here to deliver another random gob of pointless venom. What a wonderful personality this charmer is. Just what this forum needs ..... lol.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I hate to say it, but I think all these special "youth seasons" are very much grasping at straws. I think that everyone is hoping the future of hunting relies on holding special introductory seasons. I hope they do some good, but realistically, I believe that they are pretty much window dressing, and really don't address the real causes behind the low replacement rates in hunter populations. I don't for a minute believe that kids have no interest in hunting because they don't have a special time set aside for them. The real reasons are social, and until ways can be found to re-ignite youth interests in all outdoor activities and a genuine interest and enthusiasm in nature, all the rest of these experiments are most likely going to be wasted effort. Sure I suppose there is no harm in experimenting, but the hunting community should not start thinking that some special season is just the ticket for turning things around. I'm hoping that the powers that be are using their brain power on more than just this feeble activity.

It would be nice if there were a few school programs that attempt to make outdoor activities "cool" again and other things that encourage kids to appreciate all things natural. It also would be nice to try to indoctrinate parents into appreciating the mental and physical values of outdoor activities for their kids and themselves. Hiking, camping, fishing, trapping, or just plain random exploration of nature all are a whole lot more influential in boosting the hunter numbers than any of the special seasons that anybody might concoct. Furthermore, I do believe that more kids were sold on hunting on their first visit to hunting camps where hunting became a social event than some other kind of special season where the majority of hunters are not allowed to gather and create the hunt camp atmosphere.

I guess what I'm saying is that I am getting a bit tired and worried about how everybody is pinning all their hopes for the survival of hunting on special youth seasons. It all leaves me thinking that after such a plecebo is implemented, everyone will walk away thinking they have successfully saved hunting and continue to ignore or fail to invent and pursue real solutions.

Nobody is touting this as a "fix all" for getting more youth interested in hunting. Its a stepping stone, just like lowering the age in NY is another stepping stone. I think half the problem is that some people are looking for that "magic bullet" that is going to bring people into the hunting community in droves, and that just isnt realistic. Small steps in the right direction are.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sorry ...I don't care about the youth hunt as long as they have MANDATORY orange for all gun hunters...I do think that ML in the middle of bow season is foolish and as Doc says unless you hunt in a high pressure area....

The following pic is a good example...I am up to 28 stands and blinds on 72 acres....rarely do I hunt my stands more than 2x's a season...that being said...look at the date of this pic.....in the Lft hand corner out of sight....is a stand

Im at a loss for what you are trying to say here. "unless you hunt in a high pressure area...." what? Why is a picture taken in June, how many stands you have or how many times you hunt them in a season relevant to anything we are discussing here?

Dont take this as me being a jerk, Im trying to figure out what you are saying.

[Dave]

Sorry ...I don't care about the youth hunt as long as they have MANDATORY orange for all gun hunters...I do think that ML in the middle of bow season is foolish and as Doc says unless you hunt in a high pressure area....

The following pic is a good example...I am up to 28 stands and blinds on 72 acres....rarely do I hunt my stands more than 2x's a season...that being said...look at the date of this pic.....in the Lft hand corner out of sight....is a stand

That a lot of stands and blinds on 72 acres they must be real close to each other.

Dave

[First-light]

Sorry ...I don't care about the youth hunt as long as they have MANDATORY orange for all gun hunters...I do think that ML in the middle of bow season is foolish and as Doc says unless you hunt in a high pressure area....

The following pic is a good example...I am up to 28 stands and blinds on 72 acres....rarely do I hunt my stands more than 2x's a season...that being said...look at the date of this pic.....in the Lft hand corner out of sight....is a stand

Im at a loss for what you are trying to say here. "unless you hunt in a high pressure area...." what? Why is a picture taken in June, how many stands you have or how many times you hunt them in a season relevant to anything we are discussing here?

Dont take this as me being a jerk, Im trying to figure out what you are saying.

I think Grow was pointing out that at early season it's very green and hard to see other hunters. Mandatory orange would help. Maybe I'm wrong

but I think that's it.

[growalot]

                                                   

I guess it is a hard concept to explain to those who have never  experienced trying to bowhunt over-pressured deer. When you have control  over your hunting lands, or have someone else keeping the pressure  limited for you, it's hard to imagine why others would be  concerned about excessive gun activity that is happening elsewhere  during or before you begin trying to use the conventional methods of  scouting and patterning the deer you are trying to bowhunt. Frankly, I  don't know any way of making it clearer. For me it has always been  pretty obvious that you don't hold a gun season and then try to  bowhunt. It has always been obvious to me that bowhunting is an  activity of stealth because of it being a close-range style of hunting.  Others apparently are in a position to take all that for granted. I  don't think there really is any way to explain it to those that don't  have to worry about hunting pressure.

It was in to Docs above statement...I hate these quote boxes....any how.....It's also to my concern of safety which by now most of you should have a clear understanding of and why...

Yes they are close ...I group the stands a couple hundred feet apart to play the wind..also if I'm busted in one stand...the deer won't change their movement by much so I can usually go to one of the others and they will walk by not noticing me but still looking to see if I'm in the other stand....blinds are positioned on the way to stands should deer be between me and my destination

The pic was to show that even in June I have deer looking up at stands...why...well everybody here bow and gun hunts out of stands and this is a very high pressure area...that stand ...was never hunted out of last year....yet there she is looking at it

                                                                                                                                                             

[burmjohn]

Everyone that was so certain that the state believes that AR doesn't work and they do not want to implement  / expand it, why would they have this as part of their proposal?

Strategy 2.3.6: Beginning in the 2012 big game hunting season, expand the mandatory antler restriction area to include WMUs 3A, 4G, 4O, 4P, 4R, 4S, and 4W.

[nyantler]

Everyone that was so certain that the state believes that AR doesn't work and they do not want to implement  / expand it, why would they have this as part of their proposal?

Strategy 2.3.6: Beginning in the 2012 big game hunting season, expand the mandatory antler restriction area to include WMUs 3A, 4G, 4O, 4P, 4R, 4S, and 4W.

That's a simpe one.. they like everyone else that understands the concept realize that AR's do work for increasing the number of older bucks by saving the younger ones... and for those that hunt in those areas they have found that hunter satisfaction has increased... is the "3 on a side " rule the best AR standard.. I don't think so.. but it was a good start.

[Doc]

Everyone that was so certain that the state believes that AR doesn't work and they do not want to implement  / expand it, why would they have this as part of their proposal?

Strategy 2.3.6: Beginning in the 2012 big game hunting season, expand the mandatory antler restriction area to include WMUs 3A, 4G, 4O, 4P, 4R, 4S, and 4W.

I'm thinking that just like any government agency, they are subject to political pressures that may or may not really be part of their beliefs. One thing we have come to understand is exactly how driven the DEC is by politics and many AR proponents have turned to the legislative approach which always seems to trump DEC's policy. In fact if I understand it correctly, that is how the initial AR areas became law. it was not the DEC's biological view, but rather legislative coerced mandates.