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A crisp cool 50 degrees when we woke and 53 right now leafs have been scattering the ground and the choke cherries and ash are starting to turn...beech have been dropping for a week and the mobs of crow have moved in for that. I drove home from the gym yesterday and spotted several, yes several wild apples with the branches broken down and browning. The trees were so loaded with growing apples that they looked like a pile of apples sitting over a stump. I had to warn our daughter to start picking apples off her tree before she ends up having the limbs snap off. Apples are just crazy abundant and big this year...need to get to camp and check on those. I love Fall

So say we shoot 5k more does in the impacted WMUs. How many of those would be shot in gun by the same people slinging the arrow? Probably 90%. They issue 140k DMPs in only three of these units in '15. 140,000.....5k harvest? Not even a needle mover according to them. Dec says we need alot more does shot. How many is alot? How can we meet that goal? You are saying this is on bowhunters not shooting does? Complete BS. Tell me, has the DEC said we need to shoot 5,000 more does here? 10? 30,000? No. How can bowhunters be held accountable their actions when the DEC does not identify the number we need to shoot as bowhunter? The first rule in anything business related (this is a business for them) is to set CLEAR expectations. Shoot more does. Sounds simple right? BS. How many is "more"? Bowhunters, we need you to hit a target of 10,000 antlerless this season in 8H. That's a clear expectation set. If the DEC stated this, and said look, shoot 10k or else you'll have an antlerless season next year. Boom, I George Foreman guarantee bowhunters would let hell unleashed to fill the tags. Ohio issues WEEKLY harvest updates. This could be done to track in-season to monitor progress, too. I'm still waiting to see anyone from the DEC set a clear expectation or anyone trying to pin this on bowhunters tell me how many "more" is. This is a DEC agenda and any hunter who doesn't see that is implicit in churning our ranks and continuing to support an agency that is clearly inept.

They already do in these zones. Number of DMPs available is not the problem. Its land access.

I think for anyone that is set on taking a mature animal they will eat it as they have done in other years. It's really the guys on the fence that this may have just pushed back. IMO

Yes, I would agree with you that many "modern hunters" are most interested in big racks. And the main reason for that are those TV shows that you also mention. "Modern hunters" have been brainwashed by these programs, magazines and various other outlets to think that big horns is what it's all about. I feel sorry for all of you. Like Barnum said, there is a sucker born every minute, and that's exactly what has happened here. Just as society has been brainwashed into thinking that they have to have the latest iphone, ipad, the latest this or that, YOU guys have been brainwashed into thinking that hunting is ALL about racks. Like I said, I feel sorry for you all. I and some others on the other hand aren't as easily suckered as you guys. We hunt for the various other benefits, and big racks is definitely NOT what it's all about for us.

What the guys have said and this...If he gives you enough of a visual lead take a quick glance around . Many times it's not the deer your drawing down on that nails you...it's the one with them you didn't see due to tunnel vision...

Ha-ha-ha .... just another page lifted out of the Cuomo Book of Dirty Tricks. Page 846: " Don't give them a chance to respond". That goes along with the other page in that same chapter of the Cuomo Book of Dirty Tricks that says, "Never mind all the fuss and furor, they all have a short attention span and will forget about it very quickly". They've learned well from their political leader. And why not, he appoints their Commissioner.

Written by a non-hunter but it seems like he really grasped the concept of how hunting plays an important role in conservation. http://www.gq.com/long-form/who-wants-to-shoot-an-elephant??mbid=nl_20150804_daily&spMailingID=7959117&spUserID=MTAyNDEwNjQ3NzY5S0&spJobID=740531155&spReportId=NzQwNTMxMTU1S0

um, they're harder to butcher....did you miss that?

Hey Biz Sounds like you want him to purchase the land for your future needs and not his Too bad

seriously, how could you make a guy, who holds out for and only kills big bucks, feel bad? I've never seen it....what are you gonna say to him "maybe one day when you learn how to hunt you can start killing yearlings"? on the other hand I've seen other hunters make derogatory remarks to total strangers about the small deer they've killed.......I have nothing but respect for the real trophy hunter, more power to him, But too often that's the same guy who'll look down his nose at the guy with the 1.5 year old buck because he killed the next potential trophy.........if you can show me otherwise, please do.

I don't see an attack on horn hunters at all here. Only point some of us are making is that horns are not what motivates us to hunt. You guys have a hard time believing it for some bizarre reason. People like Four Seasons tries to bring this horn factor up in thread after thread. To him horns are obviously everything along with a source of income and he can't fathom anyone else thinking differently. What else can we tell you guys? Should we tell you that you guys are right and that we are wrong and stupid just to make you feel good??

I agree with your Dad. There is nothing like having your own land to hunt, work and relax on. My place is in Delaware County also, I'm 57 years young and will buy more land if any becomes available that abuts mine. My neighbors think I'm nuts because I work dawn to dusk on food plots and forest improvement every time I'm there. I tell them the outdoor work is my mental therapy and that's the truth. Encourage him and help with what ever he wants to do. You only get one father in life. Maybe your father and I have evolved into having the satisfaction and pleasure of not needing to see herds of deer and 180" bucks, but knowing there is not another hunter sitting behind the next tree. There is nothing stopping him from hunting on his own land and taking trips also. It will also be a great place for grandchildren to bond with Grandpa

This is the best response I've seen. http://themeateater.com/2015/thoughts-on-african-lions-big-game-trophies-and-hunting-in-america/

jjb4900 No you’re not I choose to pass on small bucks the key word here is choose. But I don’t have a problem with whatever someone else shoots. I’m going to shake their hand whether it’s a spike or a 10pt. if you’re happy with it I’m happy for you. You’re the kind of guy I would hunt with. I won’t hunt with a guy who is only after big racks and then bitch that he see no bucks when he lets a 120 or 130 walk because he won’t shoot anything under 140. Then the guy mocks someone who shoots a deer smaller then one he would shoot. hunting not fun for guys like that they spend more time bitching and complaining what someone else is doing then hunting. their the ones who should get out of the sport.

Your ether sex tags or gun tag the way I just read it is still ether sex in the late season unless you are hunting in one of the antlerless only wmu’s. so if you choose to hunt one of those wmu’s then yes it’s does only. So it’s up to you move or hunt does.

Really depressing when The group that I am in, in the effected areas, have been trying to use education to show the benefits of letting 1.5's walk and then in the swipe of the pen it is back to ground zero.

So this is supposed to be a reason to make hunters kill more does ? Who in their right mind thinks that this will happen ? For one why not just issue doe permits for FREE ? That would be an incentive to harvest a couple more every year Secondly stop building on all this open country land pushing the populations into other areas I know that I will now not hunt for the 1st 2 weeks of bow season, I will not even step into the woods no big deal. But I will not muzzleload anymore so I guess when they get a hit in Albany on cash flow from a lot of western NY hunters that will do the same we will see what they think then. Where do they actaully think this stuff up

Where did I say that I was for this law or said that I didn't care because it didn't effect me?? I don't support it, but at the same time I won't lie and say what some want to hear around here, which is that I don't support it because I can no longer kill a buck. Which according to some of you is the ONLY reason why ALL hunters go hunting. That's the BS part that you guys are injecting into this conversation.

I didn't hear anyone say they were quitting. Just spending less time in the woods. Therefore less chances to harvest deer... and the regulation change totally backfiring on the DEC.

I'd really like someone to name these people who are supposedly crying over not being able to kill a buck? Most of the people who might be complaining have made it no secret that killing a big buck is what drives them in hunting. Who are the rest of the complainers here? I didn't see any. Getting some meat is what drives me, and this new law has ZERO effect on me since I've never hunted in that area. My complaint would be that this law will do absolutely little to nothing to bring down the doe population since bowhunters kill very few deer. Not being able to kill a buck would get NO complaints from me if someone handed me a handful of doe tags instead. Some here are desperately attempting to get their lame point across that the biggest motivation for ALL hunters is to collect antlers which is BS. You guys have completely FAILED in trying to convince anyone that this is true.

I will be 74 this hunting season .... There is no way in hell that I wouldn't be out there on October 1st after a doe .

When the deer is coming in and the bow can be drawn unnoticed ( deer passes some bushes , tree , had head down , etc ) .

Send her this..... Winston-Salem, N.C. — MY mind was absorbed by the biochemistry of gene editing when the text messages and Facebook posts distracted me. So sorry about Cecil. Did Cecil live near your place in Zimbabwe? Cecil who? I wondered. When I turned on the news and discovered that the messages were about a lion killed by an American dentist, the village boy inside me instinctively cheered: One lion fewer to menace families like mine. My excitement was doused when I realized that the lion killer was being painted as the villain. I faced the starkest cultural contradiction I’d experienced during my five years studying in the United States. Did all those Americans signing petitions understand that lions actually kill people? That all the talk about Cecil being “beloved” or a “local favorite” was media hype? Did Jimmy Kimmel choke up because Cecil was murdered or because he confused him with Simba from “The Lion King”? In my village in Zimbabwe, surrounded by wildlife conservation areas, no lion has ever been beloved, or granted an affectionate nickname. They are objects of terror. Photo Protesters have called for the death of the hunter who killed Cecil the lion. Credit Eric Miller/Reuters When I was 9 years old, a solitary lion prowled villages near my home. After it killed a few chickens, some goats and finally a cow, we were warned to walk to school in groups and stop playing outside. My sisters no longer went alone to the river to collect water or wash dishes; my mother waited for my father and older brothers, armed with machetes, axes and spears, to escort her into the bush to collect firewood. A week later, my mother gathered me with nine of my siblings to explain that her uncle had been attacked but escaped with nothing more than an injured leg. The lion sucked the life out of the village: No one socialized by fires at night; no one dared stroll over to a neighbor’s homestead. When the lion was finally killed, no one cared whether its murderer was a local person or a white trophy hunter, whether it was poached or killed legally. We danced and sang about the vanquishing of the fearsome beast and our escape from serious harm. Recently, a 14-year-old boy in a village not far from mine wasn’t so lucky. Sleeping in his family’s fields, as villagers do to protect crops from the hippos, buffalo and elephants that trample them, he was mauled by a lion and died. The killing of Cecil hasn’t garnered much more sympathy from urban Zimbabweans, although they live with no such danger. Few have ever seen a lion, since game drives are a luxury residents of a country with an average monthly income below $150 cannot afford. Don’t misunderstand me: For Zimbabweans, wild animals have near-mystical significance. We belong to clans, and each clan claims an animal totem as its mythological ancestor. Mine is Nzou, elephant, and by tradition, I can’t eat elephant meat; it would be akin to eating a relative’s flesh. But our respect for these animals has never kept us from hunting them or allowing them to be hunted. (I’m familiar with dangerous animals; I lost my right leg to a snakebite when I was 11.) The American tendency to romanticize animals that have been given actual names and to jump onto a hashtag train has turned an ordinary situation — there were 800 lions legally killed over a decade by well-heeled foreigners who shelled out serious money to prove their prowess — into what seems to my Zimbabwean eyes an absurdist circus. PETA is calling for the hunter to be hanged. Zimbabwean politicians are accusing the United States of staging Cecil’s killing as a “ploy” to make our country look bad. And Americans who can’t find Zimbabwe on a map are applauding the nation’s demand for the extradition of the dentist, unaware that a baby elephant was reportedly slaughtered for our president’s most recent birthday banquet. Continue reading the main story Write A Comment We Zimbabweans are left shaking our heads, wondering why Americans care more about African animals than about African people. Don’t tell us what to do with our animals when you allowed your own mountain lions to be hunted to near extinction in the eastern United States. Don’t bemoan the clear-cutting of our forests when you turned yours into concrete jungles. And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger. Goodwell Nzou is a doctoral student in molecular and cellular biosciences at Wake Forest University.

I pass plenty of doe and also buck for that matter. But every year I still take 2 with one of the 3 weapons I'm allowed to hunt with. So why is the government now telling me when I should take the doe? And in fact asking me to pay extra for the privilege to take a doe? I disagree that bow hunters hunt only for an opportunity for a good buck. I believe bow hunters are just more passionate about hunting. They started with gun and then saw an opportunity to spend more time in the woods and learned how to bow hunt. It's warmer and more of a challenge. It's more peaceful and the deer aren't spooked. Not every gun hunter bow hunts, but 90%+ of us bow hunter do gun hunt. So yes, bow hunters do go after buck, but it's not because we're all trophy hunters, we're just more in to hunting than some average gun hunters. 2.5 months in the woods and if you're lucky to hunt good land you're going to be more selective than the guy who just hunts opening weekend. It's statistically impossible for bowhunters to manage the herds and expecting them to is asinine. Furthermore when and where did it become the bow hunters job? Why can't the orange army manage the herd? That's the whole argument. You have a problem with doe you say, but put ZERO regulations into affect for the gun hunter!

Seems like there was a host of opportunities to increase their doe take without screwing so many hunters. They started the license year on September 1st a couple years ago. They could have popped in a week or two in September for a gun season that was doe only. They could have done over the counter sales for these areas rather than a draw. They could have removed the Doe tag fee for these areas I just don't get why they chose the least productive weapons to put the burden on and why any change has to be more restrictive rather than increasing opportunity.

we missed this one, but got hit with the antler restrictions a few years ago........we make do with the cards we were dealt, I'm certainly not gonna sell the property/house and go where the grass is greener, we get enough dmp's to keep things moving along and soon enough the AR's are gonna pay off BIG!!! ahh, who am I kidding, I doubt it.....But, it's just deer hunting, not like I lost my job and need to go searching for a new one....

well I've been bow hunting twice that long. I remember getting 1 tag for a buck good I both bow and gun and a doe permit was called a party permit you would have up to 5 guys on a permit you could kill a doe in bow. So when you get older you may learn what’s really important hopefully not looking down at your 20year old praying he doesn’t die.(he didn’t)

Biz, from the pictures you posted on here last year of your Dad and his buck, he looked like a pretty young 61 year old..........he may very well get to enjoy it for another 20+ years, I'd help him find what would make him happy, The Catskills are a beautiful place.

Taxes aren't exactly low in Delaware county either. Probably not as high as Putnam/Dutchess, but you will be paying more than you should for the barren land. I hear you on the AR's and in not being interested in shooting does, but for $60K without a place to spend the night, along with the yearly taxes, you guys would do way better continuing to go on those outfitted hunts. You can go on a good many trips for years to come for that kind of money. I guess it will ultimately be your Dad's decision, but knowing that it took me 3+ hours to get to my spot in Delaware county, I surely would never consider owning land even 2 hours away if I didn't have a place to spend the night on it. Driving back and forth after each hunt becomes a pain in the ass mighty fast, that I can assure you.

thanks.... We were actually looking for a 24-25" impala, stalking in some thick stuff... The impala was hanging in the same area as these 2 Wildebeest bulls were... stalked up on the 2 bulls, got within 40 yards... looking for the impala, all of a sudden this bull stands up and I remember thinking "there weren't 3?"... when my PH turns and looks at me and mouths "Shoot that one now"... I bring up the T/C and BOOM!!! The 338 barked and this bulls butt hit the back of his head as he nosed dived into the ground.... As we move to the side to get a better angle my PH yells "Load another round, they don't go down like that!"... I pop another round in the gun and as we get closer... we see the bull's head is still under him... I remember thinking "they" might not go down like that but HE did... LOL... He was done.. PH was jumping up and down... hooting and hollering... I had no idea just how big he was.... He tells me stay here.. I'm going to the truck to get a tape measure... He came back and measured him at 31.5" wide... Started jumping up and down again... I had to hold the tape while he took pics to show other PH's that it was a true 31.5" wide...

The DEC says that in these areas more does need to be shot. Maybe if bow hunters had been shooting does in years past then they would not have came up with these new regs. Do I agree with those regs? NO I believe we as hunter should have a choice as to what we shoot. I also believe that when they issue doe tags they should be used. We all know that many tags are gotten and never used. Why? Because the ones who got them do not believe in shooting does and get them in hopes of keeping them out of the hands of hunters who shoot does. Most ( not all ) but most bow hunters are out there for antlers. That is effident by all the coments in this thread saying they will not hunt those 2 weeks or even those going as far as saying they are considering stopping hunting all together. There also have been comments saying this is stupis because bow hunting is too ineffected to get the job done. Realy? Is it that bow hunters cant do it or wont? Sounding like they wont. I want my buck why cant I shoot a buck. cry cry cry. I know not all bow hunters are out there for just the rack but there are far more then those whoe take does. Effident of the fact that there is an over population in certian areas. Look at what weapon is most used in these over populated areas . Want it is bows. Look at the number of bucks taken over does. Which is greater? want to bet bucks? The crying is bad enough now. Cant wait to hear it all next year when they make a 2 week muzzy doe only season in october. When ever I say bow hunters are all about the rack I get attacked yet going back through this thread you will find many many comments complaining about not being able to shoot bucks and that they will not hunt those 2 weeks if they cant. If you are willing to shoot a doe at the end then then why is there a problem with shooting one in the begining. The dec knows that most of the ones saying they wait till the end to shoot the does are full of it. They will not shot any. They are only trying to get you bow hunters to shoot does. Something that letting you make that choice on is not been working. They are not telling you that you can not shoot a buck they are just saying because you havent been shooting does because all you want is a buck then you have to wait to shoot your buck. This is showing just which bow hunters are only in it for decorations and whic are in it for hunting. And for those saying I own my property and I will do what I want on it. News flash I nor anybody owns there property. We put a security deposite on it and pay rent (aka Taxes ) every year. If you truely think you own it then stop paying your rent and see what happens.

Beautiful critters and mounts!

Maybe so but you are no doubt in the minority. Walk into any diner opening morning before first light and ask 100 hunters what they hope their day turns out to be and you will hear 90% of them say...Standing behind the big 10 point i have been watching or behind the buck making all the sign down in the swamp. Then you will hear them follow that up with..We are also going to fill the meat wagon full of doe's. That is a fact!

Sure I do...and I have allowed some whoppers to walk due to shot angle, speed and being in my range but on the limiting edge and not willing to risk it...See here it is...MY CHOICE just like it's my choice to say I refuse to participate in a flawed plan and sit in the woods to shoot doe only and being TOLD to hold off on a buck...when it just is not necessary period.

As far as I know, all of these zones pretty much hand DMPs out like candy. Im in 8H and I get 4 every year. Not sure what you mean about just getting 1, you apply for 2 DMPs when you get your license and another 2 if they have them left on Nov 1. Yes I'm going to keep drilling this! WNYBH post made me realize....perhaps that's the problem the DEC is having...They are thinking the same thing with this brain fart of theirs. They maybe handing them out like candy but NOT AT A TIME WHEN THEY WANT US TO USE THEM!!!!!! Also let me add there are a few bow hunters(few hundred ) out there that would gladly hunt doe irregardless as to how absolutely flawed this plan is. If allowed to use a cross bow just that first two weeks and in just those areas. These are guys/gals that have had to give up on bow hunting due to shoulder injuries but could use a cross bow ....Yet another example of not giving the hunters the tools to do the job they are black mailing us(some of us) into doing.

Maybe I could get some of you to sign your Anterless tags over to me and my sons ! Sure would like to fill up the freezer !

They chose the least productive weapon to pull this with. Would have made more sense the first week in gun. I see the opposite result taking place. I believe the doe take in these areas will go down as a result of this because guys will spend the time in other WMU's. They should have thrown in a two week gun in the middle of September in these areas and that would have resulted in a much higher take. What on earth is so wrong in expanding opportunity and not reducing it.

I dispute your claim that most were saying anything about how they could care less about antlers. The fact is that most were saying that antlers is not the only reason that they hunt deer and that there is a lot more to deer hunting than simply high scoring antlers. I don't think that anyone said that they had a problem with shooting a buck. Even the pure meat hunters cannot be in favor of having a large percentage of the potential deer take being made unavailable to them whether they be buck or doe.

Thats a fair year for a hobby in any book. Whats real nice is those years that 6 or 8 head out the gate at 8 plus in that group along with the 20 plus. If ya really wanted to get picky we could add in doe's,Fawns and semen sales but why bother. A hobby making more than 3 times the average person makes in Ny at their jobs. Spending 365 days a year with the greatest animal alive! Yeah it Sucks!

Good stuff..... That Blue Wildebeest is a monster. Just for folks who may not know much about them, a trophy starts getting interest when the outside bow of the horns is starting to just go over the tip of the ears......This one is well past. I have euro of a old bull I took with heavy and fairly wide horns, some mistake as a young Buffalo; the one Grizz has is a cranker.

I'm saying that the genetics may not have been so drastically different as to make a difference in the outcome of the study. I'm not sure that you can change the DNA of a bloodline with increased nutrition, better bloodlines will occur over time most likely as new bloodlines from younger more healthy bucks enter the area... My point earlier was just that... neither is better than the other because both must be present to produce superior bucks at maturity. The other thing some forget is that you cant necessarily tell the genetics of a bloodline by one deer... there are many other factors that can change antler configuration and body size... one being an injury early on in a deer's life that may be mistaken for a bad trait in the bloodline later on. A better sample would be to watching for a trend that occurs among many deer. Plus, just because a deer never gets any more points than eight doesn't mean that he is genetically inferior to a buck that produces 10 points... the genetics are just different not good or bad. there are very few exceptional bloodlines be they great or very poor... most are very natural and healthy bloodlines just different and will produce very handsome mature animals... the Frankenstein deer seldom occurs in the wild

i do have to admit though, whenever a thread is posted about ARs or trophy hunting so many of you guys are like "cant eat the horns, and i'm a meat hunter" and all that, but look at you now, alot of you want the ability to shoot a buck now that's its been taking away from you. Before you guys could care less if a deer with horns even existed.

you're right. spread and beam is not that difficult. my group can get a 100 land owners and idk how many hutners across 12,000 relatively contiguous acres to do figure it out, that otherwise shot anything legal. I have faith others could too here in NY.

I would love to see how the a$$ clowns from DEC justify this for doe population reduction. I can't think of a scenario where this will work.

No it isnt. http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/6094.html

And who appointed you to the "post police"?

Nice two year old that appears to have jammed a stick or something into his right mainbeam... Back in January... I'm not sure who this tall tined 8-pt is. He looks to be a really nice two year old or possibly a three year old (I leaning towards three)...

Not with low brass ammo using #6 shot. Smaller shot means a lot of work picking lead out of the meat.

i used to wear mossy oak breakup but then figured out it was too dark. was a dark blob at distance. the HD camo these days is specialized with all the detail but going more and more to the lighter more open side of things. i don't seem to have a problem with Realtree camo. i have noticed lighter camo in dark conifer stands doesn't work the best. i do have seclusion winter camo coverups that i wear when snow is abundant and that works disgustingly well. as a kid i made original treebark camo work darn well, but in hind sight i always hunted on the ground at the base of a big tree. I've been within steps of deer with maybe half a dozen different camo patterns. i don't think any of it really sucks. it's just using what matches your surroundings best and don't move so much.