can you explain why hunters would want to shorten gun season?

[njg0621]

Listen I'm talking off the cuff you guys are Googling all the answers you're right I'm wrong let's move on.

[stoneam2006]

Trophy hunters that's why...i didnt read all the comments

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[Nomad]

Idk it seems to,be ok around me .

[Doewhacker]

Hey look 4C where njg hunts has a high buck take. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Listen I'm talking off the cuff you guys are Googling all the answers you're right I'm wrong let's move on.

It isn’t really googling. It’s been best to death at least a couple times a year since this site was started. I doubt we can add anything that hasn’t been posted before. But everyone will try. Lol. Good luck this year. Enjoy it out there. We only have so many hunting days in our lives. Don’t waste them.

[Zuke]

For me, it’s not about making it easy to shoot a “monster buck” every year with ease. Let’s face it, if every woodlot had a dozen 5 year old bucks, they would still not be easy to kill. To me it’s about herd management and a balance in nature. I don’t want to force everyone to pass on a buck that would make them happy, I feel like that would trample rights and freedoms, which I know every one of us enjoys. I would just like to find a way to put our herd in check, which where I live and hunt, it is not. If you want to shoot a spike horn, please feel free. But why must people shoot multiple bucks a season?

[The_Real_TCIII]

I'd like to see a break down of the numer killed by date . How many are killed in the last week that we'd do away with ?  Most here say the woods are empty by then .

Not me, I see plenty of deer hunters right up to the end of the late season. I'm in the minority I guess I think we've got pretty good deer hunting

[SteveB]

7 hours ago, chas0218 said:

You're kidding right? Between our property and our neighbors we all practice AR and have had some really nice bucks come off the 400 acres total that we all practice AR. Each year on our property alone we have 2 or 3 "shooter" bucks in the 130"+ range not to mention the handful of 100"-110" bucks then a few smaller 1.5 and 2.5 year olds. Every year either on my property or the neighbors we harvest 4.5 year old or older deer.

Let me know when you find credible information stating AR don't work. 

Sounds like you are passing most everything under 4.5 - that will change the age structure to have more bucks reach actual maturity. AR does not - the best of the 1.5 and 2.5 are targeted because they have the right number of points. Fact is AR alone without the conscious effort to age and pass deer under 4.5 does not create a real difference of more mature bucks in the herd. It justs lets some of them get a little bigger.

[wfmiller]

13 hours ago, chas0218 said:

You're kidding right? Between our property and our neighbors we all practice AR and have had some really nice bucks come off the 400 acres total that we all practice AR. Each year on our property alone we have 2 or 3 "shooter" bucks in the 130"+ range not to mention the handful of 100"-110" bucks then a few smaller 1.5 and 2.5 year olds. Every year either on my property or the neighbors we harvest 4.5 year old or older deer.

Let me know when you find credible information stating AR don't work. 

Mississippi was the first state to have AR's after 10 years the average size of the bucks went down. Common sense, if you shoot only big deer you shoot the genetics out of the herd. 

[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, wfmiller said:

Mississippi was the first state to have AR's after 10 years the average size of the bucks went down. Common sense, if you shoot only big deer you shoot the genetics out of the herd. 

Oh my, please tell me that was a joke.  Genetics are genetics, you are born with them.  They don't suddenly change or appear at a certain age.  You can see better with age what they contain, but older deer don't always have better genetics.  I'm sorry, but if that wasn't a joke it ironically contained the least common sense possible.

[WNYBuckHunter]

8 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

Oh my, please tell me that was a joke.  Genetics are genetics, you are born with them.  They don't suddenly change or appear at a certain age.  You can see better with age what they contain, but older deer don't always have better genetics.  I'm sorry, but if that wasn't a joke it ironically contained the least common sense possible.

He’s talking about high grading. Basically it happens when you are constantly shooting larger racked young bucks, which have the better genetics. That leaves the smaller racked bucks, with less than ideal genetics to do the breeding. Over the span of many years of doing this, all you are left with is a herd with inferior genetics, resulting in smaller racks, even in older deer. 

[G-Man]

High grading doesn't take many years a few years of 4 a side hunting in high Hunter density areas will do it pretty fast. You have to remember there are 550k hunters with a buck tag in my and only 113k antlered bucks are taken.. That is a lot of hunters per square mile

[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, G-Man said:

High grading doesn't take many years a few years of 4 a side hunting in high Hunter density areas will do it pretty fast. You have to remember there are 550k hunters with a buck tag in my and only 113k antlered bucks are taken.. That is a lot of hunters per square mile

High grading?  These same bucks that you are concerned about being removed as 3 or 4 year olds, or I'll even say 2.5's, would likely all be provided an extra one to three years to pass on those desirable genetics.  Remember, he has the same genetic make up at 1.5 as he does at 5.5. We can't possibly know or guess what the genetic make up of what our harvest is.

If the concern against not being able to shoot young bucks in NYs deer herd is high grading, then the aspirations for our deer herd are much higher than I could ever have for this state.  Most deer, I would think, would be legal targets at 2.5, I'm just not sure most of those deer will be judged for potential before being harvested by many a hunter.

I think valid arguments can be had in both sides of this conversation, but to broadly state that AR is proven not to work has more to do with the author's desire to see them put in place, or not.  I haven't hunted Mississippi, but I've hunted Pennsylvania for more than 25 years.  My experience and eyes tell me it works and I think most would agree it has achieved many of the goals they set forth.  However, if you want to shoot any buck you see on PA, but can't, then you likely feel it has been a disaster.

BTW, AR has been in place on PA for quite some time now, and I'm not sure the deer herd has been high graded quite yet.

 

 

[reeltime]

while I'm sure high grading may happen to some extent especially on tracs of public land.

 

I am not a biologist but have been living the AR program in Pa. since its inception. 

When the AR were instituted in Pa. back in early 2000's people bought into Gary Alts speech  while holding up a nice size set of antlers saying give them age and this is the possibility.  What people did not understand was his herd reduction (HR) plan also associated with the AR plan.

We had a massive amount of deer in PA. were nice bucks shot every year? yes but only handfuls per county except for the shotgun/bow counties around the large metropolises of pittsburgh,philly,harrisburgh etc.

There were a massive amount of antlerless tags given out and in 2 years because of the hunting mentality, number of hunters, and the number of doe tags and along with the AR the doe population was decimated in 2 years which prompted the PGC to drop the combined season the first 5 days of the season. 

There was a massive upheaval with hunters and the PGC would not back down from their plan on AR but they did cut back on antlerless tags. Gary Alt had to retire because of all the death threats from people. Basically people lost their minds.

Finally people stepped in and since folks could not control their trigger finger something happened that made my beautiful state look more like NY.  NOTHING caused posted sign sales to skyrocket more than the AR/HR program. by 2006/2007 posted signs were EVERYWHERE.  I was also one of those putting up posted signs to try and stop the massacre of all the antlerless deer.

What this did was caused people to do a little homework on deer management, myself included and we started gearing our property toward protecting the deer our property held and voluntarily passing on young but legal deer. 

We set aside sanctuary areas and clear cut those areas to promote brush growth and those areas are off limits. We planted food plots to add an area of special treats on top of all the ag fields in the area. ( I did our first food plot in 1994 and I have never shot a deer on one of my food plots)

since 06/07 we have been seeing an increase in mature deer, Why? because we have done a ton of work to give them food, cover, security that allows them to get age on them.  I have said before and will say it again, young deer at the age of 1.5,2.5 are pretty gullible and when rut crazed can be pretty stupid at times.

from 2.5 to 3.5 the deer makes a big jump in survival skills but they can still let their guard down when the desire to breed overtakes their survival instinct.

From 3.5 to 4.5 they make a massive jump in survival skills and when targeting those animals you had better be on your A game.  Do people blunder into a big mature buck occasionally? yes always have always will but I can tell you that that same person isn't going to blunder into 4.5,5.5 yo bucks every year simply because bucks at that age do not make many mistakes as a rule. 

I put nothing in those "the best state to hunt" "best city to live" etc. because you don't know who they polled, what their agenda is, how many people they polled and the background of those polled. did they poll 100 people in each state? did they poll hunters that couldn't find a deer standing in an open field.  not to be sarcastic but we all probably know someone that couldn't see a deer standing in the wide open 50 yards away.  To me polls are like opinions and we all know the old saying about opinions, lol.

 

When you really stop and think about it the hunting is not that bad in NY.  a long bow season, a gun season almost as long as the bow season, generous antlerless tags for those that want to shoot doe, and 2 buck tags, turkey tags, bear tag, decent waterfowl hunting and fair small game hunting.  Really think about it folks is the hunting really that bad in NY??? Im sure in areas it can be harder hunting but is that where the participation trophy issue is stemming from?

As I have said before I call a spade a spade, hunting is a sport, you get out of it what you put into it, sometimes that means you have to put more into it,,,,,like exploring different areas, more scouting, more time on the maps. etc. While part of deer management should take into account hunter satisfaction the bottom line is that aspect needs to be a very small factor.  Proper herd management is a combination of sex ratio, habitat carrying capacity(all aspects of it) and human interaction ( car/deer,  crop damage, etc) and one of the biggest factors when talking about whitetail genetics is that while it takes good genetics from a buck more importantly is that the doe has a lot to do with it as well.

 

Do just blanket AR statewide work, to some degree maybe but in general no. There is just too big of a difference in habitat across the vast expanse of a state the size of NY.  It takes a working relationship between the DEC and hunters to make it work or more importantly work between hunters to make it work. 

You think AR and the work people are putting in is not working in PA? look at the age and size of the bucks being killed there. those ages and sizes were not being killed in the 80's,90's in any significant numbers. That did NOT happen overnight and wont happen overnight here either, it takes work, a LOT of work and restraint from shooting young deer and that is the biggest issue people have. 

 

[Fletch]

Lol now PA is a successful trophy state lol!!

 

At least comparing NY to PA makes some since. It has high hunter density and a lot of different terrain comparable to NY. Comparing NY to a mid west or west state is less than relevant, it is a waste of time. Not even apples to oranges more like apples to drywall!

 

I will for sure say NY has room to improve but you are missing the fact it is already improving and quite rapidly!! Look at the stats the past 10 years! This is in areas without ars too.

 

You also miss the real problems. NY deer management is becoming more controlled by politicians than biologists, NY does not put enough cash into DEC, we are always short staffed in officers, biologists and day to day DEC staff.

 

Your stance NY is the worst is ludicrous. Just because you find it on the internet don’t mean it’s true! I tell my kids that constantly!!

 

Try VT, ME, NH, FL,AZ, NM, CA, CT, MA, DE.......for whitetail or a number of other states that might or might not match up with an individuals requirements.

 

You two have the personal opinion and that’s cool. I think it’s ok and getting better. The hunting not NY lol.

 

Oh and to the original ?, I think bow should end say 5 days earlier and gun start 5 days later. That will give a 10 day cool off during rut and before gun. Except in overpopulated zones. Maybe keep doe open in those and it will bring in folks from non open zones to help.

 

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[Nomad]

Agree Fletch , NY has room to,improve , who,thinks it's better in those states? 

Id add Texas to the list too, buddy moved there , hated the deer hunting , very little public land and big bucks to hunt private .

[Five Seasons]

18 hours ago, Zuke said:

I have noticed a lot of people on this forum stating how they had “no sign of the rut” this year and I firmly believe, as ccondid1 stated, this is a herd health issue. If the buck/doe ratio was closer, many of you may see a more active rut. If the bucks have a dozen does for every one of them, no need exists to waste energy seeking, they’re easy to find and with relatively no competition.

some people aren't great hunters or scouters. The chase face was a little light this year in my area. I've been on the forum a while and don't see anything different this year other than we didn't get great weather. That weather affected some weekend hunts, but i promise you the bucks are out getting their tally whackers wet just like they do every year.

[Five Seasons]

17 hours ago, Doewhacker said:

Mine too lol

A good one was in my yard while I was at work last week during daylight. What a kick in the nuts

x3. the rut is either glorious or frustrating. with cam technology we now have proof of our dumb stand selection. I was literally 30 yards away in different stands from a 120 and 130 class TWICE this year. I sat in the stand both time grunting and crying.

that's just the breaks. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Belo

[Five Seasons]

5 hours ago, wfmiller said:

Mississippi was the first state to have AR's after 10 years the average size of the bucks went down. Common sense, if you shoot only big deer you shoot the genetics out of the herd. 

i hunted MS for 2 seasons. the only ars's are on public land. The problem MS had was unlimited buck tags on private property and then unlimited doe everywhere. a few years later they realized they killed off all their females. 

[wooly]

Only selfish reason I can come up with for shortening the regular season is to get an earlier start on the shed season. All indications in the past have shown that every year there are some good survivors no matter how long our season is. Plenty of solid bucks around this area year after year, I just don't have the patience to target them the way I should and really just want their antlers anyhow.

Aside from that, you guys can do whatever you want with the season length.

I've usually had enough by December and start to get pretty sloppy (and cold) anyhow.

Edited November 16, 2017 by wooly

[chas0218]

18 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Or maybe most of the guys that have seen no sign of the rut just plain arent hunting the right areas. I can tell you, that out of 1000+ acres of private land that I hunt, on any given day in the thick of the rut, only maybe 100 acres of it total, are prime rutting areas. Deer dont run willy nilly all over every inch of land during the rut, they tend to concentrate their activity in certain areas. Sure, you might see some chasing here and there in other areas once in a while, but heavy rut activity mostly takes place in certain places.

For example, I could be hunting a stand and see 3 bucks chasing hard, does running around, the whole 9 yards. My buddy could be hunting the same property, at the same time, just a few hundred yards away and tell me that every deer on the farm has disappeared into a black hole because he hasnt seen a hair.

Yes and it usually takes place near bedding areas more than grazing areas.

[reeltime]

Fletch, not sure if your response of so I think pa is a monster buck state now was directed at me but I never did not have I said that pa is a monster state.
I did state that since the inception of AR in pa the numbers of mature bucks has increased. Is it statewide? No would it ever be statewide? No there is just too much area and habitat variation but there is no denying the fact that there are far more mature deer today than there were 20 years ago.

I have never said the hunting in my was terrible, beck I have hunted from west Virginia to Maine and never had a problem killing a deer, I adapt to what the sigh is telling me.

I have not nor would I ever compare my to the mid west. Not even close to being comparable, deer here are treated as rats deer out there are a money treasure and are protected as such.

Keep the focus on the mid west as far as I am concerned, some of the nicest whitetail bucks walking in the USA are less than a 10 hour drive from anywhere in ny if the hunter wants to put in the time to kill one.

To call ny the worst hunting state could not be farther than the truth as has been posted here. Don't know who they polled to come up with that but its completely false.

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[Doc]

Anyway ...... Getting back to the original topic, I will say that this year, just like the past few decades will start off like gang-busters and then after the first couple of days have concluded, you will swear that you had heard more shooting during squirrel season. Perhaps the 1st half day of Thanksgiving there might be a little flurry of activity.Then it might get a little more active on the next Saturday and Sunday,  After that, you could shut the whole thing down and most of the hunting world wouldn't even realize that it happened.

So the fact is that most hunters don't really want to shorten the season....The fact is they simply lose interest and don't care.

[Robhuntandfish]

when i was a younger man and was working two and or three jobs.  I was lucky to get out 1 or 2 times.  One year I hunted the last day of season and had two doe tags and ate them all but i did get out.  Was glad i had a long season to get out once.  

[Just Lucky]

The talk of western states and big bucks and how we should follow their example makes me wonder how quickly baiting would become legal and the diseases that can come with that.