Same old issues..ar's or not

[Dom]

5 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

made it what, doe only? i'd still hunt 100%, most years that's all I shoot anyway.  Many areas of NY couldn't support that rule though.

Yes Doe only.Why not doe numbers seem to be higher this could happen if our regular season tag became a doe tag where as you could use it anywhere in the state like our buck tag now covers

[chas0218]

12 minutes ago, Dom said:

How many would only hunt Does if they made that the rule?I would for sure as well as many that I know that hunt!

Only thing I shot this year were doe, so it would make no difference to me.

[Hunter007]

Voluntary I am ok with but when you start trying to infoce something like that especially on state land it becomes a hassle for law forcement that  have better things to do then babysit a bunch of hunters on public land especially.

[dbHunterNY]

Just now, Dom said:

Yes Doe only.Why not doe numbers seem to be higher this could happen if our regular season tag became a doe tag where as you could use it anywhere in the state like our buck tag now covers

take my area.  DEC doe harvest expectations are about 3.5 doe per square mile to maintain population. Hunter density is a lot more and could easy take more than that, especially if you can fill any doe tag with a gun.  DEC plays around the idea of creating opportunity despite it's unlikely to be capitalized on. for example everyone can shoot doe with over the counter tags bow/muzzleloader in all WMU's except a small number of them up in northern NY. it's just the hunter wielded implement allowed isn't as proficient as a rifle or slug gun.  you'd be taking more than a sustainable number of doe.  that's why earn a buck will never happen in almost all areas of NY.

[WNYBuckHunter]

42 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to single you out. I appreciate you responding to my posts and I'm not trying to start an argument with you directly just expressing my opinion on the matter. I wasn't sure if I was coming off as a D*ck.

LOL, not at all. Its just a conversation, if we all agreed it would be a boring site. Even though I dont completely agree with your opinion on this, I still respect it.

[dbHunterNY]

2 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

Voluntary I am ok with but when you start trying to infoce something like that especially on state land it becomes a hassle for law forcement that  have better things to do then babysit a bunch of hunters on public land especially.

I don't think many people realize that when everyone is subjected to a restriction like one buck or antler minimums, everyone is now vested. the community starts policing themselves more.  I know because that's what happens on large QDM co-ops out here when no legal or contractually binding repercussions exist for breaking the rules.

[TreeGuy]

So torn on this topic. I don't know what the best thing is. I know for me, MAR would be welcomed to my "style" of hunting and would benefit ME alot. I think it has to benefit the majority though. I get the point that new hunters could get discouraged and want to quit, but ANY amount of research done prior to starting to hunt will reveal that hunting is far from easy. It takes alot of effort to succeed. If any new hunter thinks that they will score the first even second or third year they are already setting themselves up for failure. Ar or not, I don't suppose you will have a MAJOR success increase for newbs. Regardless, i would expect a newb to shoot the first deer or whatever deer they want ! I know when my kids start hunting I'll be encouraging a good shot, at any deer they see, not waiting for a mature or AR type buck.

Again, I don't know what is best for the majority and don't think I have any right to decide that. I do think that if we had AR that we would all start seeing bigger bucks, as now the young ones get a pass. I think NY has a great potential to be on the top end for big bucks. It may be a tough couple years but if your area has any deer they will be bigger the next year, and if your concerned that your area has barely any, it can't get worse with ARs, right ? Might you have to pass the only deer you see? Yes, but so will everybody else (legally). He will live to breed and hopefully leave your area with more deer than he came there with ! Now I'm just guessing at this stuff, and I'm biased to ARs because of my style of hunting. I am however trying to keep an open mind on others arguements and I can definitely relate and agree with most of these opposing opinions. My biggest hope is that the DEC makes the best calls that will benefit hunters as a majority, and the deer herd.

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[Rattler]

I hunt Delaware County.  We've had AR's for a few years now.  I talk to a couple of deer processing shops and they feel the deer don't have bigger antlers than before.  They say they see no change in the deer brought in to cut up.

I suspect the reason has to do with the quality of food available to deer here.  It's mostly woods and mountains.  Fewer farms are growing things that would improve antler quality.  Without really good nutrition, antler quality isn't going to get better.

I see a lot of 6 and 8 point racks that are really spindly and thin.  I wouldn't call these "quality" racks.  I also think there are many deer with inferior genes that are not being removed from the herd, therefore they are out there lowering the quality of the gene pool in this AR area.

Not many bucks are needed to keep the does pregnant every year, but if the genetically inferior deer are allowed to walk, they will be doing a lot of breeding and actually hurting the quality of the racks in the area.

I do not feel the experiment is working, based on what I've seen.  I was willing to support the experiment in the beginning, but after giving it a chance, I've concluded it is a failure.

[dbHunterNY]

3 minutes ago, TreeGuy said:

So torn on this topic. I don't know what the best thing is. I know for me, MAR would be welcomed to my "style" of hunting and would benefit ME alot. I think it has to benefit the majority though. I get the point that new hunters could get discouraged and want to quit, but ANY amount of research done prior to starting to hunt will reveal that hunting is far from easy. It takes alot of effort to succeed. If any new hunter thinks that they will score the first even second or third year they are already setting themselves up for failure. Ar or not, I don't suppose you will have a MAJOR success increase for newbs. Regardless, i would expect a newb to shoot the first deer or whatever deer they want ! I know when my kids start hunting I'll be encouraging a good shot, at any deer they see, not waiting for a mature or AR type buck.

Again, I don't know what is best for the majority and don't think I have any right to decide that. I do think that if we had AR that we would all start seeing bigger bucks, as now the young ones get a pass. I think NY has a great potential to be on the top end for big bucks. It may be a tough couple years but if your area has any deer they will be bigger the next year, and if your concerned that your area has barely any, it can't get worse with ARs, right ? Might you have to pass the only deer you see? Yes, but so will everybody else (legally). He will live to breed and hopefully leave your area with more deer than he came there with ! Now I'm just guessing at this stuff, and I'm biased to ARs because of my style of hunting. I am however trying to keep an open mind on others arguements and I can definitely relate and agree with most of these opposing opinions. My biggest hope is that the DEC makes the best calls that will benefit hunters as a majority, and the deer herd.

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in areas you see little to no deer it makes the most sense to have ARs. you're constantly having a protected portion of bucks up moving around to compete for the limited number of doe. you see and experience more action with them running around. yet next year they will most likely become fair game, along with any yearling bucks that following year that are fair game too.  as buck age structure grows the AR minimum buck becomes what you know to be the spike horn, the smallest legal buck out there. it very well might get passed by a good number of hunters despite legal, because they're seeing or having encounters with something bigger running around.  almost all AR proposals voluntary or mandatory do or can make exemptions for new hunters.  you can't imagine the opportunity they have then.  on our co-op with voluntary restrictions new hunter opportunity is extremely high to the point that it's practically guaranteed.

[dbHunterNY]

12 minutes ago, Rattler said:

I hunt Delaware County.  We've had AR's for a few years now.  I talk to a couple of deer processing shops and they feel the deer don't have bigger antlers than before.  They say they see no change in the deer brought in to cut up.

I suspect the reason has to do with the quality of food available to deer here.  It's mostly woods and mountains.  Fewer farms are growing things that would improve antler quality.  Without really good nutrition, antler quality isn't going to get better.

I see a lot of 6 and 8 point racks that are really spindly and thin.  I wouldn't call these "quality" racks.  I also think there are many deer with inferior genes that are not being removed from the herd, therefore they are out there lowering the quality of the gene pool in this AR area.

Not many bucks are needed to keep the does pregnant every year, but if the genetically inferior deer are allowed to walk, they will be doing a lot of breeding and actually hurting the quality of the racks in the area.

I do not feel the experiment is working, based on what I've seen.  I was willing to support the experiment in the beginning, but after giving it a chance, I've concluded it is a failure.

it's been said in the deer biologist community that 70% of antler genetics come from the doe.  also that making harvest decisions to hopes to change genetics in a free range deer herd is like pissing into the north atlantic while watching the water level.  are that many doe at all being taken in the area you hunt, or are they the same deer with the same genetics year after year? if you see more 6 and 8 point spindly racks it just means more young bucks are blooming into 6 and 8 points still at a young age.  research has shown that a buck can make it happen with around 6 doe at most.  if you're in the catskills or an area with lower doe density that number is probably lower. even then twin fawns are found to have different fathers.  what you see is what you see. I can't argue there but I think it's probably from other reasons though than what you think.

[Rattler]

3 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

it's been said in the deer biologist community that 70% of antler genetics come from the doe.  also that making harvest decisions to hopes to change genetics in a free range deer herd is like pissing into the north atlantic while watching the water level.  are that many doe at all being taken in the area you hunt, or are they the same deer with the same genetics year after year? if you see more 6 and 8 point spindly racks it just means more young bucks are blooming into 6 and 8 points still at a young age.  research has shown that a buck can make it happen with around 6 doe at most.  if you're in the catskills or an area with lower doe density that number is probably lower. even then twin fawns are found to have different fathers.  what you see is what you see. I can't argue there but I think it's probably from other reasons though than what you think.

Doe density here is low and few doe permits are given out.  The spindly racked deer are aged to be 2 1/2 years old.  The current consensus of the residents in this county, is that the antler quality will not improve over what it has been, due to the lack of good nutritional quality browse.  That is based on the fact the antler quality was far better when there were far more working farms around, supplying far better browse for the deer.  The processing shops see most of the deer harvested in this county, and hear about any good bucks they don't get.  They have been doing they're work for decades and have data to back it up.

There is a huge difference in results regarding antler quality, when looking at the statewide deer population vs deer populations living in a private co-op enhanced location.  I have no objection to QDM management by private concerns, but the evidence indicates it is not effective when done on public lands by just controlling what can be taken.  QDM is a lot more complicated and involved than that.

[chas0218]

20 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

in areas you see little to no deer it makes the most sense to have ARs. you're constantly having a protected portion of bucks up moving around to compete for the limited number of doe. you see and experience more action with them running around. yet next year they will most likely become fair game, along with any yearling bucks that following year that are fair game too.  as buck age structure grows the AR minimum buck becomes what you know to be the spike horn, the smallest legal buck out there. it very well might get passed by a good number of hunters despite legal, because they're seeing or having encounters with something bigger running around.  almost all AR proposals voluntary or mandatory do or can make exemptions for new hunters.  you can't imagine the opportunity they have then.  on our co-op with voluntary restrictions new hunter opportunity is extremely high to the point that it's practically guaranteed.

I will say that all depends on the area. If i compared 8F and 8W 8F would have much higher chance of seeing and killing a mature buck compared to 8W same for doe. 

[dbHunterNY]

40 minutes ago, Rattler said:

Doe density here is low and few doe permits are given out.  The spindly racked deer are aged to be 2 1/2 years old.  The current consensus of the residents in this county, is that the antler quality will not improve over what it has been, due to the lack of good nutritional quality browse.  That is based on the fact the antler quality was far better when there were far more working farms around, supplying far better browse for the deer.  The processing shops see most of the deer harvested in this county, and hear about any good bucks they don't get.  They have been doing they're work for decades and have data to back it up.

There is a huge difference in results regarding antler quality, when looking at the statewide deer population vs deer populations living in a private co-op enhanced location.  I have no objection to QDM management by private concerns, but the evidence indicates it is not effective when done on public lands by just controlling what can be taken.  QDM is a lot more complicated and involved than that.

all QDM co-op's are different. ones i'd be referencing are in their infancy. the only thing they're doing is monitoring doe harvest closer than the state can and using ARs to pass only the youngest of bucks. some here and there get into actually habitat stuff but it's no more than what anyone else does around the state. a little hunt plot and simply logging their property once in a great while.  if it's only 2.5 years old it's common to have spindly antlers, it's only seen it's second year with a true set of antlers! comparing antler circumference we're in an area with historically some of the smallest antlers.

I agree with you though that ARs are only going to do so much. they aren't the fix all solution by themselves. i'm not saying the "data" meat cutters have isn't good.  actually i'd better money that DEC has data collected themselves from all those deer.  ARs have done what they're supposed to do. get deer to the next age class. if you want bigger bone per age class, you've got to give them more and better nutrition. it's also got to happen year after year for multiple generations of deer. 

literally in the next county over though I know of QDM co-ops that have been doing all parts of QDM for many years and it shows there bucks are bigger and older with people thinking they're midwest deer, but i agree they aren't really relevant to the discussion. then again maybe it's not.  what I've taken from your posts is the antler restrictions did what they were supposed to but you're expecting and/or want more.

[dbHunterNY]

57 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

I will say that all depends on the area. If i compared 8F and 8W 8F would have much higher chance of seeing and killing a mature buck compared to 8W same for doe. 

overall results will be different for different areas because they're just different.  if implemented on a statewide level they'll be designed ensure a good # of bucks grow into 2.5 and on much more rare occasion 3.5 years old. antlers and body size will get bigger as a results but only to a degree that age can have. some of them will get smart (ditch some ignorance) and they'll naturally elude hunters and live to see older days.  that's all they'll do.  I've found out for many that's good enough and better than where they're at now.  that said every state that has any mandated restriction doesn't do it every where.  only in areas that are best served by them.
 

it blows my mind that we live in a state with a DEC that can justify giving deer vasectomies and phlebotomies yet not be up for a trial and error run on OBR or ARs. I mean if they aren't willing to because they don't want to make a decision that might look bad, that day has come and gone like an anniversary.

[Doc]

I always get a bit nervous about heaping new restrictions on hunters at a time when hunter numbers are falling. In the long run, it could do more damage to game management than good. As bad as dwindling hunter population is, there is also what I perceive as dwindling enthusiasm where hunting has become a 1 or 2 day event for many (maybe even most) hunters. I think plaguing them with all kinds of heavy restrictions or rules that limit their opportunities or bag limits will not reverse that trend. Let's not always be looking for ways to frustrate people out of the sport with all kinds of new restrictions and regulations.

 

[nyantler]

Although I'm not for mandatory AR's in NY... The idea of an antler restriction is much more appealing than the self righteous, so called, QDMers attitude of shaming anyone that doesn't shoot a buck that meets their personal standard. The Whole idea of managing for trophy whitetails has gotten out of control - with little real thought of establishing total herd health in a given habitat ( the true QDM ), and more emphasis on beating their chest because they passed on a 2.5 year old 8-point... only to shoot it at the end of the season when they become desperate for a buck... and accompanied by a " not what I was looking for, but it's meat in the freezer" explanation for why they chose to kill it the second time around.

If managing for bigger bucks is what some hunters want then at least lets stop the elitist type attitude that demands others change their way of enjoying the hunt to fit someone else's version. 

It's about time a big name deer hunting publication came out with the reality of what this boom on trophy buck management is actually doing to hunting... As some of you know, I'm all about hunting big bucks, just not about forcing other hunters to forego their hunting enjoyment to meet my personal standards.

[Will_C]

After seeing 15 years of AR in Pennsylavnia, I have a few thoughts. I do see, in my hunting area, a marginal increase in bigger bucks. I have also seen hunter participation decline a lot-not sure of percentages, but it is significant.

i know I have had to pass up 15 or more bucks through the years, and have only shot 2 since AR. I keep hunting there because of tradition-it's also the only time I see some relatives all year. I can only hunt 3 days, so it doesn't really make sense for me but I still go.

I see AR as beneficial for hunters that have good access to land and the time to hunt. I don't think it works for those us that have limited time and are looking for some venison for the freezer. I worry about the future of hunting if people continue to drop out. That can lead to more hunting restriction as non-hunters don't have the respect for the hunt that we need to stop anti hunting laws.

Will

[TreeGuy]

Nyantler, I can't agree more. I'm after mature bucks no doubt,but I get so discouraged when I hear the personal put downs.... I'm prob guilty of some of that verbage to an extent in some of my posts. I'm always encouraged when I hear success storys and know that the feeling some have on their harvests is the same as when I tag a hitlist buck. I'm certain there has been more excitement and quality memories made over spikes and fork horns than over some of these book bucks. I can feel the excitement in some story's told and quite frankly I dont get upset or mad if it's a small buck. I get upset when hunters put themselves down because they didn't shoot a 130 or better, or its not as big as some people have posted up that year. It's a changing world and hunting is following suit. I don't want to get too deep but reality is the whole "family" structure is changing. Both spouses typically work, every kid is a winner, same sex marriage, gender issues, divorce rates,suicide, heroin etc. We are slowly losing grips on core values that this country was built on, as the media forces this crap down our throats. How that relates to hunting...? It's no longer a family thing. The chances of someone not raised in a hunting family that just decided to pick up the sport is slim to none and if it happens that hunter has heard a million stories or watched Grampa strap a deer to grammas dodge diplomat hood as a youngster. They are coming in to a world of Michael waddells and Jim shockeys. They see giant bucks get killed on the internet and want a chance at em. They may have buddy's who have 10 years senior on them who may have a couple mature bucks under their belt. Now when that hunter heads out, hits the stand, gets all amped up when the first racked deer walks by he takes it, but then his buddies see, or the web sees and now he knows it's not as big as others yet feels the need to down play his success. I guess I'm off on a tangent here and need to shut up, there's just a lack of sportsmanship and gratitude for the opportunities that we have and others have. We are all entitled to our opinions and most will be different but with a new generation of hunters coming into the woods the demand for bigger bucks seems to be the trend that may be influencing the Dec to change laws to meet the demand of the next generation that will be responsible for liscense sales once the "meat" hunting generation is gone.

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[coonhunter]

What I am curious about is what do the hunters that are pushing for all the restrictions think is going to happen when the number of hunters continues to drop and the deer population continues to grow because we no longer have enough hunters shooting does to put a dent in it?

Hunters have become so horn crazy that they spend thousands on leases and plots every year, just to post a picture on a bunch of sites and on social media. 500 acre farms with two people hunting it, pictures of 20-30 deer out in the fields in the daylight, and none of them being shot, and nobody having access to shoot them. 

I guess I am just old school and enjoy the comraderie of hunting. I have always had access to good to great hunting, and I always try to get permission for a friend or two because I like to have and enjoy success as a pair or group. I have no land that I am the only one that has permission, and I wouldn't want it that way. Hunting to me is being with friends, family, and the youngsters trying to learn, up to the old timers that need a little help. 

Don't get me wrong, I love killing a big one, but I get just as much joy, or maybe even more, from helping others get their first deer, first buck, first big buck , or even their first deer in a few years. The TV media has almost ruined hunting as a whole. I try every year to keep the tradition of hunting alive in my area by keeping a few people in the woods because once they don't go a season, it gets easier to not go the next. I know there is no hope of turning back, but I will try and keep it fun hunting with me.

[G-Man]

12 hours ago, chas0218 said:

I have no problem with kids killing the first deer that walks in front of them, so 18 and under no big deal let them shoot what they want. Add MAR's to anyone older 3 or more on one side. Even if the kid is 16 starting out for the first time gun hunting they can shoot what they want for their first 3 years.

So you don't want MAR's because someone will shoot the deer you want to shoot out of season anyway? What if they shoot it completely legal during the season would you still be against them because they shot the deer you wanted to shoot? We have practiced AR's on our property along with neighbor land owners and I will tell you it works. We have shot large deer every year over 130" most all of them 10 points 4.5 years old or older. 

What if my fiance starts,hunting at 35? Or i get a friend into it at 50.. it may take them 6 or 7 years just to see a deer to shoot... nope no mandatory ars 

[G-Man]

My personal experience with practicing qdm or as I like to call it ( Tdm) total deer management.  I have no restriction on guys at camp I simple show via cam photos deer that are available. I personally target top 3 to 5 buck I have on cam.. most guys do the same. 

Although  we pass up many many buck the true giants on cam elude us most years. Once a deer makes it to 2.5 and survives  to 3.5 or 4.5 they are master's of hiding. They are not behind every tree as they do not put up with each other. If I can hold 1 or 2 140 in or more buck on my 274 acres I'm extremely  lucky.. many of " my buck" show up on neighbors cameras 2 or 3 miles away.. but are not shot.. ar's  will do nothing for improving how we hunt..we are patterned  so quickly that a sighting of a target animal is the highlight of the season many times.. 

I truly believe there is a big buck in everyone's area and only a top skilled woodsman / hunter wil lbe able to consitantly harvest one if they can get access to the property to hunt the target animal properly. 

In my opinion habitat is a much bigger factor in consistently holding big deer than ar's. The thick  nasty stuff is where they hide and let you walk by at mere yards as they hide as well as secure feeding areas.. they grow old and die rarely  glimpsed by a hunter.  Yet they may appear  on camera or sheds may be found to prove they exist or existed

[wolc123]

1 hour ago, TreeGuy said:

Nyantler, I can't agree more. I'm after mature bucks no doubt,but I get so discouraged when I hear the personal put downs.... I'm prob guilty of some of that verbage to an extent in some of my posts. I'm always encouraged when I hear success storys and know that the feeling some have on their harvests is the same as when I tag a hitlist buck. I'm certain there has been more excitement and quality memories made over spikes and fork horns than over some of these book bucks. I can feel the excitement in some story's told and quite frankly I dont get upset or mad if it's a small buck. I get upset when hunters put themselves down because they didn't shoot a 130 or better, or its not as big as some people have posted up that year. It's a changing world and hunting is following suit. I don't want to get too deep but reality is the whole "family" structure is changing. Both spouses typically work, every kid is a winner, same sex marriage, gender issues, divorce rates,suicide, heroin etc. We are slowly losing grips on core values that this country was built on, as the media forces this crap down our throats. How that relates to hunting...? It's no longer a family thing. The chances of someone not raised in a hunting family that just decided to pick up the sport is slim to none and if it happens that hunter has heard a million stories or watched Grampa strap a deer to grammas dodge diplomat hood as a youngster. They are coming in to a world of Michael waddells and Jim shockeys. They see giant bucks get killed on the internet and want a chance at em. They may have buddy's who have 10 years senior on them who may have a couple mature bucks under their belt. Now when that hunter heads out, hits the stand, gets all amped up when the first racked deer walks by he takes it, but then his buddies see, or the web sees and now he knows it's not as big as others yet feels the need to down play his success. I guess I'm off on a tangent here and need to shut up, there's just a lack of sportsmanship and gratitude for the opportunities that we have and others have. We are all entitled to our opinions and most will be different but with a new generation of hunters coming into the woods the demand for bigger bucks seems to be the trend that may be influencing the Dec to change laws to meet the demand of the next generation that will be responsible for liscense sales once the "meat" hunting generation is gone.

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I think you are missing the latest trend, which is meat.  The big antler fad is finally starting to wind down, and not a moment too soon.  Look at Moog's "reminder buck" thread, or that new member, named after the greek goodess of the hunt, right here on this site for some up to the moment indications of that.   The DEC missed their opportunity on the AR thing.  That was so last year.  Now it is the meat hunters who they should be looking out for.     

[OldBrian]

Coon hunter,

Well said!

[TreeGuy]

I think you are missing the latest trend, which is meat.  The big antler fad is finally starting to wind down, and not a moment too soon.  Look at Moog's "reminder buck" thread, or that new member, named after the greek goodess of the hunt, right here on this site for some up to the moment indications of that.   The DEC missed their opportunity on the AR thing.  That was so last year.  Now it is the meat hunters who they should be looking out for.     

Hmm. I could be wrong about the newest generation of hunters but, I don't think so. I can't speak for Moog or the Greek goddess but if I am able to voice my interpretations of the two......As far as Moog goes, I read the post. I also am fairly confident Moog will get right back to his mature buck passion. His reminder buck wasn't a reminder that he wanted backstraps for dinner, it was the fact he could see himself getting caught up in the chase and not enjoying his hunt... (My interpretation) As far as the "new hunter named after a Greek goddess" SHES NEW ! She showed sincere interest to learn about hunting deer. I don't recall her saying she wanted to fill the freezer and call it a day. Again, my interpretation.


Do tell where I misinterpreted.

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[reeltime]

3 minutes ago, TreeGuy said:

Do tell where I misinterpreted.

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you didn't.