223 Vmax For Deer?????

[wolc123]

Maybe he is real fast with the trigger and riddles them, on center of mass in close, with 5 or 6 round bursts.  That would fill them with more lead than a 12 ga load of 00 buckshot and that takes a lot of deer with dogs down south.

[dbHunterNY]

i've mauled this over for years, ever since i've shot Black Hills loaded 60gr vmax on woodchucks. i've slowed down a bit due to day life stuff going on but would shoot close to 100 multiple many of those years. they shot amazing (just under 1/2moa) from my savage model 12 varmint rifle on a good calm day. they destroyed and sent chucks about air born if you video the shot. even with the biggest alfalfa fattened ones, it didn't matter where you hit them. if you hit bone it just made more of a mess of them despite lack of energy compared to larger caliber. any deer i found people had shot turned insides to soup. some squared up on shoulder but no pass through and barely no weight retention despite a dead deer. slightly quartering deer same thing. total broadsided deer through the ribs was the way to go holding tight as comfortable to heart/shoulder. often made big holes but sometimes only the entrance. sometimes pass through had core and jacket to give you a couple holes if both made it between ribs. some pretty far at 200 yards but most well within a 100 yards. definitely not driving deer. all selective shots. brush in my opinion doesn't mean anything. I've seen Petzal and other grizzly old gun gurus test the brush buster theory with fit the task big guns and brush will deflect anything, especially a pointed sleek lighter bullet.
i will shoot a deer with my AR. I believe well within a 100 yds a Vmax will dump a deer or it won't make it far. i like two holes and a bullet with weight retention that small though, especially if i catch any bone. for that reason i picked up plenty of Federal Fusion 62gr bonded ammo for the task. My years worth of thoughts, research, and worries summed up anyway.  

[dbHunterNY]

7 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

Maybe he is real fast with the trigger and riddles them, on center of mass in close, with 5 or 6 round bursts.  That would fill them with more lead than a 12 ga load of 00 buckshot and that takes a lot of deer with dogs down south.

i consider myself a decent shot at running deer or targets for that matter. i'm good for getting 2 shots in the vitals in open hardwoods or pines. if i put a 3rd in them it was because they were half down and not running. 2nd almost always dumped them and if it didn't the 3rd was lights out. idk how you'd get connect with 5 or 6 let alone need to shot that many times. even hitting it high back in the ass puts them standing on front shoulders not running. ive seen it. he'd definitely be annie oakley's decendent or mentor in a different life he unloaded 5 or 6 placed rounds.

[Robhuntandfish]

55 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Why? What if they all had Remington 740's and Winchester 100's?

Thought I said why....Like I said just me in my own head.  Not big on deer drives to begin with and a bunch of guys with .223 ARs just not my thing. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

3 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Thought I said why....Like I said just me in my own head.  Not big on deer drives to begin with and a bunch of guys with .223 ARs just not my thing. 

I get that. Just that many say "AR" and immediately think of .223/5.56 when there are some really good deer calibers in the AR platform.  AND I hate to hear "us" using the AR platform term as a negative when it is virtually no different functionally as the some of the classic deer drive semi's like I listed

[SpacemanSpiff]

4 hours ago, Cabin Fever said:

Does it leave a decent blood trail? I killed one a couple years ago with a .223 and used Remington 55gr PSP. I would never do it again. I purposely took the .223 one day after a fresh snow, thinking if it left a poor blood trail, I would be able to find it by tracking in the fresh snow. I put a heart shot on one and it only made it 40-50 yards. I went to see what the blood trail was like, but only found specs of blood, between where I shot him and where he fell. Tiny entrance hole, no exit, but massive internal damage though. 

Never had one go far enough to bother. I generally go spine, neck, head shots with sub 24 cal rounds. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

29 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

i've mauled this over for years, ever since i've shot Black Hills loaded 60gr vmax on woodchucks. i've slowed down a bit due to day life stuff going on but would shoot close to 100 multiple many of those years. they shot amazing (just under 1/2moa) from my savage model 12 varmint rifle on a good calm day. they destroyed and sent chucks about air born if you video the shot. even with the biggest alfalfa fattened ones, it didn't matter where you hit them. if you hit bone it just made more of a mess of them despite lack of energy compared to larger caliber. any deer i found people had shot turned insides to soup. some squared up on shoulder but no pass through and barely no weight retention despite a dead deer. slightly quartering deer same thing. total broadsided deer through the ribs was the way to go holding tight as comfortable to heart/shoulder. often made big holes but sometimes only the entrance. sometimes pass through had core and jacket to give you a couple holes if both made it between ribs. some pretty far at 200 yards but most well within a 100 yards. definitely not driving deer. all selective shots. brush in my opinion doesn't mean anything. I've seen Petzal and other grizzly old gun gurus test the brush buster theory with fit the task big guns and brush will deflect anything, especially a pointed sleek lighter bullet.
i will shoot a deer with my AR. I believe well within a 100 yds a Vmax will dump a deer or it won't make it far. i like two holes and a bullet with weight retention that small though, especially if i catch any bone. for that reason i picked up plenty of Federal Fusion 62gr bonded ammo for the task. My years worth of thoughts, research, and worries summed up anyway.  

I'm looking forward to unleashing the 458 SOCOM this year. 

[Robhuntandfish]

1 minute ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I get that. Just that many say "AR" and immediately think of .223/5.56 when there are some really good deer calibers in the AR platform.  AND I hate to hear "us" using the AR platform term as a negative when it is virtually no different functionally as the some of the classic deer drive semi's like I listed

Yeah I understand but showing up and a bunch of young guys with 223 ARs would make my Spidey sense go off and worry they think they are Rambo.  Lol.  If it was guys I knew and trusted I wouldnt think twice about it.  

And I get the stigmatism and what your saying too. But theres no doubt guys are dropping $1400+ on one of those for the cool factor. Which is different than the use of those old semis we've seen used. Usually because it's all they have , at least that's what I've seen.  

Often appearances are just what they seem. A bunch of young guys with expensive ARs on a deer drive.....I wish them the best of luck but I would pass on that crowd.  Just not my thing. 

[Steve D]

I personally will not use any round without having confidence it. One of the cheapest and most effective ways to test  bullet performance is to take a 1-gallon milk jug filled with water and shoot it with the round you plan to use.

For those of you that don't drink milk or get their milk from a cow; any plastic container filled with water will give the same results.

For those doubting the V-max here is a video showing the result that be expected.

 I have performed this same test at various yardages with the same results.

The big drawback on V-max is any obstruction between you and the intended target like a twig, golden rod, etc. will result in a miss. Unless you hand load you probably won't find them.

The positive side of the v-max is they are accurate, will not ricochet, or pass through to hit something or someone beyond the target.

 I am not advocating using them but they will get the job done.

 I don't do deer drives either and if & when I did I would be carrying a shotgun.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Steve D

[dbHunterNY]

7 minutes ago, Steve D said:

I personally will not use any round without having confidence it. One of the cheapest and most effective ways to test  bullet performance is to take a 1-gallon milk jug filled with water and shoot it with the round you plan to use.

For those of you that don't drink milk or get their milk from a cow; any plastic container filled with water will give the same results.

For those doubting the V-max here is a video showing the result that be expected.

 I have performed this same test at various yardages with the same results.

The big drawback on V-max is any obstruction between you and the intended target like a twig, golden rod, etc. will result in a miss. Unless you hand load you probably won't find them.

The positive side of the v-max is they are accurate, will not ricochet, or pass through to hit something or someone beyond the target.

 I am not advocating using them but they will get the job done.

 I don't do deer drives either and if & when I did I would be carrying a shotgun.

 

i typed my thoughts. i've shot a 2 liter soda bottle of water at just under 300 yards. center punched but blew the bottle open like that video. little more velocity as my savage has a 26" BBL. still this year i'm going with bonded Federal Fusions. I might some day with real close opportunity try them but i'm an engineer and it's designed as a varmint bullet not a deer bullet.

[dbHunterNY]

34 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I'm looking forward to unleashing the 458 SOCOM this year. 

i almost pulled the trigger on an upper. PMAGs and my tension and fit adjustable lower on my Springfield would function with a mil spec upper just fine. mag isn't pinned though. I can take it without significant flinch fine but doubt i'd like an un-braked 458! lol i passed .... three times actually. first was hard because I was told uppers were hard to find which isn't completely false.

[Steve D]

7 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

i typed my thoughts. i've shot a 2 liter soda bottle of water at just under 300 yards. center punched but blew the bottle open like that video. little more velocity as my savage has a 26" BBL. still this year i'm going with bonded Federal Fusions. I might some day with real close opportunity try them but i'm an engineer and it's designed as a varmint bullet not a deer bullet.

Mr. Engineer

I WAS NOT DISPUTING IT'S DESIGN. I DID NOT SUGGEST THERE ARE NOT BETTER CHOICES.

 Just stating it can be effective if one chooses to use it and understand it limitations. Not trying to reinvent the wheel.

[dbHunterNY]

21 minutes ago, Steve D said:

Mr. Engineer

I WAS NOT DISPUTING IT'S DESIGN. I DID NOT SUGGEST THERE ARE NOT BETTER CHOICES.

 Just stating it can be effective if one chooses to use it and understand it limitations. Not trying to reinvent the wheel.

i know you weren't and i agree. engineer comment was backing up the fact i probably over think things. lol no need for caps.

[Waterfowler]

Deer are not milk jugs..

[ncountry]

3 hours ago, Waterfowler said:

Deer are not milk jugs..

True. But their lungs would like that milk jug.lol

[chrisw]

I've shot 1 deer with my 223 and it will probably be my last. Shot a big doe in the snow at 25 yds, straight through her heart, she reacted hard and all but instantly vanished into the thick brush. I gave it a bit and got down to look right before dark. A few hairs at impact but no blood at all. I followed her tracks for about 40 yds in the snow through a mess of brush without seeing a single drop of blood. She layed there dead, without a drop of blood anywhere. Entrance hole was smaller than the size of a pencil, no exit. If I had made a marginal shot or had no snow I'd have thought for sure I'd missed her. It just has no place in the deer woods in my opinion. There are a million better cartridges, why choose one that's so unforgiving? It's just dumb in my opinion. Use one long enough and you will lose a deer due to it. I've recently built a 6.8 SPC to use in the AR platform. Hoping for better results because the gun is so short and light it's a dream to carry. But it could take years to break in because I kill few deer with guns anymore.

Sent from my moto g fast using Tapatalk

[LET EM GROW]

The vmax is less than ideal, but capable if you dont hit bone. That being said, Vmax to the neck will drop the deer everytime. I shot a 4yr old buck with a 95vmax from a 6.5cm tight to the shoulder and he died after 50 yard dash quickly. Bullet fragmented and literally hit everything within a ft of the entrance hole. shrapnel down the front leg, stomach lungs, heart, neck all had shrapnel. the bullet got in about 6-8" deep at max.. 

the 223 is better with vmax than the 22.250 would be, due to velocity.. A vmax pushed over 3400fps tend to explode on impact. A vmax traveling closer to this velocity or less will achieve better penetration. and less explosion. 

As youre aware im sure, a bullet built for penetration makes the 223 a whitetail killer..  

Edited October 22, 2021 by LET EM GROW

[steve863]

All I will say is that a conversation about the .223 for deer hunting would have never happened 30 years ago before the AR rifle craze.

 

 

 

[fasteddie]

On 10/20/2021 at 4:05 PM, dbHunterNY said:

i consider myself a decent shot at running deer or targets for that matter. i'm good for getting 2 shots in the vitals in open hardwoods or pines. if i put a 3rd in them it was because they were half down and not running. 2nd almost always dumped them and if it didn't the 3rd was lights out. idk how you'd get connect with 5 or 6 let alone need to shot that many times. even hitting it high back in the ass puts them standing on front shoulders not running. ive seen it. he'd definitely be annie oakley's decendent or mentor in a different life he unloaded 5 or 6 placed rounds.

What ever happened with "one shot-one kill"? As Ex Prince Andy would say , "You don't need 10 bullets to kill a deah  ! (deah is how he pronounced it) 

[dbHunterNY]

What ever happened with "one shot-one kill"? As Ex Prince Andy would say , "You don't need 10 bullets to kill a deah  ! (deah is how he pronounced it) 

Last deer I put more than one into to stop it was a 180lb buck. First through the both lungs but didn't slow it down a bit. Second was within 2 inches at something like 50-75 yards. Another double lung shot. Second dumped it though which is weird because both through rib cage not should or anything solid.

9 out of 10 shots are 1 per kill with many DRT. 150gr bonded federal fusion 30-06 ammo. Most are close to 200 yards and others less than 300 yards. A small number under 100 or over 300. That kind of range spread and performance I won't see if I had a 223. Otherwise the story would probably be almost all within 100 yards worh a couple out to 200yds. More ran and less drt. Still dead deer is a dead deer. Use what you've got within its means.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[stubborn1VT]

If I only took perfect broadside shots on feeding deer at 20 yards or less, I could kill deer with field points.  I'm not totally against the .223.  It just seems like it would be wise to at least use a bullet made for deer.  

I saw a nice Maine buck that took 3 bullets from a .270.  One at 35 yards, one from ten feet and one at point blank.  The only bullet to penetrate further than the hide was the last one.  The hunter was using 130 grain varmint bullets in a legit whitetail caliber.  But a dead deer is a dead deer, right?

I know a guy who hunts with an AR in .223 with whatever ammo he has kicking around.  He commutes in a 400 HP pickup.  SMH.

[ncountry]

1 hour ago, stubborn1VT said:

If I only took perfect broadside shots on feeding deer at 20 yards 

I saw a nice Maine buck that took 3 bullets from a .270.  One at 35 yards, one from ten feet and one at point blank.  The only bullet to penetrate further than the hide was the last one.  The hunter was using 130 grain varmint bullets in a legit whitetail caliber.  But a dead deer is a dead deer, right?

 

Did you actually see the skinned deer. I would have to see it to believe it. The only shots I've ever seen that didn't enter the body cavity were extreme quartering shots. I'm of the opinion everything else is a myth..;)

Edited October 22, 2021 by ncountry

[stubborn1VT]

I helped skin the buck.  Bullets were outside the ribcage.  The varmint bullet did what it was designed to do.  

1 hour ago, ncountry said:

Did you actually see the skinned deer. I would have to see it to believe it. The only shots I've ever seen that didn't enter the body cavity were extreme quartering shots. I'm of the opinion everything else is a myth..;)

 

[ncountry]

2 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

I helped skin the buck.  Bullets were outside the ribcage.  The varmint bullet did what it was designed to do.  

 

Strange. I've seen them shot with .22mag, .17hmr, on up 

Right through the ribcage and into the lungs. Less than 50yd runs after the shot. I guess one never knows..

[stubborn1VT]

16 minutes ago, ncountry said:

Strange. I've seen them shot with .22mag, .17hmr, on up 

Right through the ribcage and into the lungs. Less than 50yd runs after the shot. I guess one never knows..

Varmint bullets are made to explode and fragment.  I wasn't surprised at all.  High velocity and a frangible bullet won't give you penetration.