Deer Population

[orion]

If you think about why does the DEC even care how many deer there are.

 

Farmers complain about crop damage  =  more dmp's

DOT and road kills  =  more dmp's

Small towns complaining about too many deer  =  more dmp's

Foresters and regeneration  =  more dmp's

Even antler restrictions "shoot a doe if you want meat" =  more dmp's

 

Just hand them out until hunters start loudly complaining of the lack of deer.  Then maybe cut back a few.

 

So basically do they really care about the actually population?

Or do they want the least amount of deer possible that will keep hunters mostly at bay.

[Merlot]

DEC personnel are good, hard working people. They care. Would be great if the entire hunting population would care enough to properly report their kill/non kill each season to help them out. If hunters don't report what happened during their season, you do not get a license the following year. Simple.

[thphm]

. Would be great if the entire hunting population would care enough to properly report their kill/non kill each season to help them out.

X2 on the above. Around my property there are one third the amount of deer that there were 3 - 4 years ago.

Last years deer take per Sq. mile was the the same as the amount of deer that I have seen in the last 2 years.( and I am out and about every day ) in my area. They should cut back on the amount of DMP 's by me.

[NFA-ADK]

I think they are more concerned with keeping the population in check vs having enough deer for hunters.  I do not feel they are concerned with population unless it is high.  I have never heard a DEC agent talk about how to get the population up in an area.  Unless you talk about the ADK then they recommend praying for mild winters. 

[G-Man]

They have a shoddy reporting system, and educated guesses using formulas, the numbers reported are way off from what I know is taken, there is no way I can take 10% of an entire towns take off 300 acres.. manage what you can using your own judgement work on your habitat, relying on others is just crazy . The wmu are much to large for proper management. But to make them smaller means more staff and $$$

wake up and demand a right to hunt in the state constitution,to be run by a game department, remember the dec is all enviromental,pollution,emmisions,willife,water,marine,and everything else... I'd rather have my game managed by specialists.

[Doc]

DEC personnel are good, hard working people. They care. Would be great if the entire hunting population would care enough to properly report their kill/non kill each season to help them out. If hunters don't report what happened during their season, you do not get a license the following year. Simple.

As far as the DEC is concerned, their system is perfect, as witnessed on their own web site. In response to good suggestions about bringing the reporting rate to near 100%, their answer is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" That is a quote off their own webpage. So they feel that their statistical system of accounting for non reporting hunters is as good as if we all reported and cannot be improved on. Arrogant? ..... sure, but they are the ones running the show. So if hunters don't report their kills, it doesn't matter. The DEC claims they've got it covered.

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

IMO the automated report system is a major disappointment ,, I know many hunters who say they will report and don't when asked later ... I believe that the old mail in system was more accurate,, as these same people always did that .. Just my 2 cents ...

In general I think to many doe permits are issued for DMPs due to overpopulation in housing tracts and areas that can't be hunted .. Which helps nothing ...

[growalot]

Well I had a surprising conversation today...where the person blurted out ..."For as much as I pay in taxes, I be dipped if I'm paying for a hunting license...especially when I don't go out much!"...Ouch! my chin hurt when it hit the floor...but I've been thinking on this today..If that particular person would say that and out loud....I have to wonder how many other ppl are saying/doing  the same thing?

[jjb4900]

Well I had a surprising conversation today...where the person blurted out ..."For as much as I pay in taxes, I be dipped if I'm paying for a hunting license...especially when I don't go out much!"...Ouch! my chin hurt when it hit the floor...but I've been thinking on this today..If that particular person would say that and out loud....I have to wonder how many other ppl are saying/doing  the same thing?

that's classic.........you really gotta wonder how much of that is going around. I'm willing to bet the population of hunters who really care about deer and the management behind them is tiny.

[Nomad]

Well I had a surprising conversation today...where the person blurted out ..."For as much as I pay in taxes, I be dipped if I'm paying for a hunting license...especially when I don't go out much!"...Ouch! my chin hurt when it hit the floor...but I've been thinking on this today..If that particular person would say that and out loud....I have to wonder how many other ppl are saying/doing the same thing?

I think it's pretty common Years past a large group came down from Quebec to hunt with a local. They had a ton of guys tresspassed everywhere killed trucks full of deer , never bought a tag. They would run from you jump in their trucks and speed off. After I believe 9/11 you needed a hunting lic. to enter with your guns and they never came back.

My hunting partner had his daughters BF move in with them, he's from "up north" and hunts. My buddy asked him if he wanted to come with us and did he get a lic. yet He laughed and said where he was from nobody bought them.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Larry302

[WNYBuckHunter]

Im willing to bet the population of hunters who really care about deer and the management behind them is tiny.

There you have it in a nutshell, and its true. I have really noticed it since i started becoming involved with the QDMA. Yes, the number of people that do know, and care about it is growing, but its still a pretty small percentage of the total number of hunters.

[nyantler]

It really wouldn't matter what the DEC was doing in the way of management because there will always be a good amount of uninformed, nay saying, ignorant hunters that will be pushing back on whatever system is in place... its a human condition that runs rampant among NYS hunters. The DEC decisions are usually more about baby sitting the cry babies than anything... I'm sure they would love to do more but have to deal with the hissy fits that hunters have over the slightest changes... I am in full agreement that the DEC could stand to improve deer management techniques in NY, but I'm not sure that it would matter what they did... they would still get a hard time from a large portion of the hunting population. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't kind of thing.

[DirtTime]

It really wouldn't matter what the DEC was doing in the way of management because there will always be a good amount of uninformed, nay saying, ignorant hunters that will be pushing back on whatever system is in place... its a human condition that runs rampant among NYS hunters. The DEC decisions are usually more about baby sitting the cry babies than anything... I'm sure they would love to do more but have to deal with the hissy fits that hunters have over the slightest changes... I am in full agreement that the DEC could stand to improve deer management techniques in NY, but I'm not sure that it would matter what they did... they would still get a hard time from a large portion of the hunting population. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't kind of thing.

 

 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Manage your own property for the number of deer you want on your property to keep a healthy herd and have great hunting. Dont worry about what others thing is a good number of deer for you to take. Its your property after all.

[Doc]

I guess my opinion of hunters runs a bit counter to popular opinion here. I am thinking that most hunters do care about management and abiding by the laws as best they understand them, if only for selfish reasons of safeguarding their sport. For example, down here (southern zone) where backtags are required, I have yet to see anyone out there without one. I have yet to see anyone breaking a law, and would have promptly reported them if I had. I believe that a lot of people like to tell stories or make foolish statements just to see the reaction, or appear to be the tough law-breaker just as their weird version of trying to impress people. Sure there are lawbreaker, poachers and such, but I believe they are in the insignificant minority. Perhaps that's a bunch of wishful thinking, but I still believe that it has become the favorite pastime of hunters to imagine lawlessness everywhere and to bad-mouth other hunters as much as possible. I'm not sure what the appeal is, but generally if you interrogate a bit deeper, the facts of these stories start falling apart.

[dbHunterNY]

As far as the DEC is concerned, their system is perfect, as witnessed on their own web site. In response to good suggestions about bringing the reporting rate to near 100%, their answer is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" That is a quote off their own webpage. So they feel that their statistical system of accounting for non reporting hunters is as good as if we all reported and cannot be improved on. Arrogant? ..... sure, but they are the ones running the show. So if hunters don't report their kills, it doesn't matter. The DEC claims they've got it covered.

 

they don't have the ideas or means to make it better yet so yea they tell you it's working great.  why would they tell you it's broken without having a solution?? lol  not arrogance it's politics and publicity control.  it's best to report our kills (which is otherwise illegal).  then have the DEC say hey it's great are system is doing even better due to greater reporting. so reporting does matter.  this isn't reporting effects on what a hunting populous thinks about a management tool, it's getting the data for the foundation of everything you do next season.

[dbHunterNY]

Well I had a surprising conversation today...where the person blurted out ..."For as much as I pay in taxes, I be dipped if I'm paying for a hunting license...especially when I don't go out much!"...Ouch! my chin hurt when it hit the floor...but I've been thinking on this today..If that particular person would say that and out loud....I have to wonder how many other ppl are saying/doing  the same thing?

 

a lot.  if you pay property taxes reaching five figures here in NY where everything else is taxed then people start to get tired.

[dbHunterNY]

There you have it in a nutshell, and its true. I have really noticed it since i started becoming involved with the QDMA. Yes, the number of people that do know, and care about it is growing, but its still a pretty small percentage of the total number of hunters.

 

I notice the same.  many would care if they couldn't hunt.  they take for granted that deer are just always around to a degree and assume their hunting situation can't be changed enough to warrant doing anything about it.  kind of like voting in an election.

[jjb4900]

I notice the same.  many would care if they couldn't hunt.  they take for granted that deer are just always around to a degree and assume their hunting situation can't be changed enough to warrant doing anything about it.  kind of like voting in an election.

I know maybe a dozen guys or so that deer hunt.........the majority find out about any changes that occurred when they buy their licenses in the fall

[DirtTime]

I know maybe a dozen guys or so that deer hunt.........the majority find out about any changes that occurred when they buy their licenses in the fall

 

 

Back when the dinosaurs roamed the Earth, you know, before cell phones, flat screen TV's, and the world wide web, that was about all we had to go by.

 

I have read/heard people say over and over, most of the information is wrong due to poachers, people not reporting kills, and a few other things. Deer have been going into cities for a long, long, long time. It's nothing new. Deer have been harassing or hurting farmers for a long time too. In this day and age with the huge rise in bow hunting the 'burbs, you would think it would help, but if you go by the stats, it's really not helping. Before anyone takes that as me bashing bow hunters please don't! I only hunt with a bow, I was just making a notation! In the areas around me or where I hunt, deer population is good.

 

I might end up wanting to hang myself for saying this but.......The coyote population is up and so is large land development. You add those together and you have a predator, loss of natural food/water/bedding areas for deer. Perhaps, the population is fine, they are just moving out of some areas.

This is just my thoughts on the topic.

Edited June 8, 2015 by ....rob

[DirtTime]

I can't edit my last post, so here's just a bit of insight pertaining to this topic:

 

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/open-country/2013/05/public-land-deer-hunting-how-save-americas-whitetail-woods

 

 

This article was from 2013, bet it's very relevant today.

[Doc]

they don't have the ideas or means to make it better yet so yea they tell you it's working great.  why would they tell you it's broken without having a solution?? lol  not arrogance it's politics and publicity control.  it's best to report our kills (which is otherwise illegal).  then have the DEC say hey it's great are system is doing even better due to greater reporting. so reporting does matter.  this isn't reporting effects on what a hunting populous thinks about a management tool, it's getting the data for the foundation of everything you do next season.

 

At http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/47738.html you can find the real DEC attitude on the perfection of their systems.

 

Quote:

“Some people have suggested that we should change our system to require reports from all hunters, successful or not, and that non-reporters should be denied a license the next year. These ideas and others have been discussed within DEC in the past, however all harvest reporting scenarios have both positive and negative aspects. Across the nation, a variety of methods are used to estimate annual deer harvests including use of mandatory check stations and deer check at meat lockers, mail questionnaires, report cards, telephone surveys, and telephone and internet reporting. No one method is perfect, and all state agencies must deal with incomplete reporting.

 

Ultimately, the adage, "if it's not broken, don't fix it," comes into play. Suggestions to change DEC's harvest reporting system, while well intentioned, typically stem from a misunderstanding of how the system works and a belief that our current system is not sufficient for accurate harvest estimates or proper deer management. This simply is not the case.”

 

Now, tell me that they are not saying that their system is as near-perfect as possible and doesn't require changes. I love that last paragraph that basically tries to discourage any suggestions from the ignorant "well intentioned" outsiders who are simply too uneducated and stupid to understand the finely honed and perfected systems used by the DEC. Yes, I do call that arrogance! And as you correctly indicated, "it's getting the data for the foundation of everything you do next season" and I would think that it deserves a more serious attitude than these arrogant comments show that the DEC has toward any suggestions for improvements.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Back when the dinosaurs roamed the Earth, you know, before cell phones, flat screen TV's, and the world wide web, that was about all we had to go by.

 

I have read/heard people say over and over, most of the information is wrong due to poachers, people not reporting kills, and a few other things. Deer have been going into cities for a long, long, long time. It's nothing new. Deer have been harassing or hurting farmers for a long time too. In this day and age with the huge rise in bow hunting the 'burbs, you would think it would help, but if you go by the stats, it's really not helping. Before anyone takes that as me bashing bow hunters please don't! I only hunt with a bow, I was just making a notation! In the areas around me or where I hunt, deer population is good.

 

I might end up wanting to hang myself for saying this but.......The coyote population is up and so is large land development. You add those together and you have a predator, loss of natural food/water/bedding areas for deer. Perhaps, the population is fine, they are just moving out of some areas.

This is just my thoughts on the topic.

 

Heres the problem though. Human development of areas, especially residential areas, helps deer. We plant flowers, bushes, all kinds of gardens and plants that deer like to eat. Then you get the people that feed the deer, bird feeders, etc etc and they end up having plenty of food available to go along with the fields that are still farmed in and nearby most suburbs. Then, you think about all of the greenspace thats plopped right in the middle of housing tracts, most of which cant be hunted, and now youve provided sanctuaries for the deer as well. Other than an increase in deer killed by cars, many times we actually promote the deer herd through most residential and commercial development, but we have pushed the hunters out. Hunting is by far the most efficient way to control deer populations and in many areas you just cant do it any longer. Deer are extremely adaptable and adjust to their surroundings very quickly. Its why they have done so well once market hunting was put to a stop and the hunting lisence/wildlife management model began.

 

The population needs to be looked at in smaller areas, and not thought of in regions or state wide. You can have an over population in one area, and not nearly as many deer 5 or 10 miles away for a variety of reasons.

[Curmudgeon]

Heres the problem though. Human development of areas, especially residential areas, helps deer. We plant flowers, bushes, all kinds of gardens and plants that deer like to eat. Then you get the people that feed the deer, bird feeders, etc etc and they end up having plenty of food available to go along with the fields that are still farmed in and nearby most suburbs. Then, you think about all of the greenspace thats plopped right in the middle of housing tracts, most of which cant be hunted, and now youve provided sanctuaries for the deer as well. Other than an increase in deer killed by cars, many times we actually promote the deer herd through most residential and commercial development, but we have pushed the hunters out. Hunting is by far the most efficient way to control deer populations and in many areas you just cant do it any longer. Deer are extremely adaptable and adjust to their surroundings very quickly. Its why they have done so well once market hunting was put to a stop and the hunting lisence/wildlife management model began.

 

The population needs to be looked at in smaller areas, and not thought of in regions or state wide. You can have an over population in one area, and not nearly as many deer 5 or 10 miles away for a variety of reasons.

 

Very true. You can barely drive the residential areas on the fringes of Oneonta at night without endangering your car. Thankfully it is on 30 mph so injuries to people are few. A few miles away in the state forest, deer are hard to find.

 

[landtracdeerhunter]

We must keep in mind, New Yorks DEC has agencies pulling at them at all sides. They must weigh their options and sling a happy medium. We'll this sounds great, right? The truth of the matter is they have a play book, and they follow it to a tee. Their may be a slight adjustment, here or there, but the books pretty much followed. Any government funded agency, is going to go with a set of rules. Many adopted years ago. New Yorks no different.  Once these rules are final, their pretty much set in stone. It's nearly impossible to ever change them.