Hunter Shoots Dogs

[left field]

7 hours ago, growalot said:

When that switch in a dog's brain is flipped and it attacks on it's own......there is NO going back..it has become a loaded weapon. If cops and DEC responding to problems were actually trained...fewer warnings and more confiscation would occur. Then law abiding citizens wouldn't have to make the hard decisions to protect them selves and their property.

3

That's not the way a dog's temperament works. At least according to this former protection dog trainer who has taken purposeful bites from hundreds of dogs. You should be able to back down 99% of the dogs that you come across. 

 

[growalot]

 Re- read that quote, I said when the attack switch is flipped ON ITS OWN.  Not as in attack training . As you well know or as you should know, there is a difference.

Now that is backed by veternarians ,personal experience and a combination of information from pets attacking family members ,strangers,companion pets ...etc.....etc. There is a reason why the State requires,BTW just like gun shot wounds,dog bites  be reported to the authorities when they turn up at hospitals...I've had that happened twice and received calls at home after treatment.

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by growalot

[left field]

There is no attack switch. There are behaviors or drives that may be triggered by external actions, but even those drives are not "on or off" as there is usually a myriad of things going on when a dog bites.

Vets are mostly idiots when it comes to dog behavior and as most laypeople have no idea what's going on when a dog bites, their opinion is equally worthless. Add dog control officers to that list. The ones I've met usually hate dogs.

Some dog bites are unwarranted, but there are many situations where I felt the bite was justified. Unfortunately, that's a tough position to argue in today's political climate.

[growalot]

[New York Hillbilly]

After reading through this thread a few thoughts. As a life long dog owner, I have had german shepherd, lab, shitzu, dachshunds, mixed breeds, and currently a Westie, and a boxer (maybe pit) mixed 9 month old pup. Mostly though,   I raised, trained, hunted, and successfully field trailed beagles. While there is much to be said for the role breeding practices, breed personality, and instinct has in dog behavior, far more has to do with the time spent socializing, training, and being a responsible dog owner. Dogs that are provided human socialization, interaction, and training learn their place in the human pack and what is expected, acceptable, and what is not. "Bad dogs" are in my experience a reflection of either ineffective, I can't be bothered and wish it stayed a  cute puppy but it grew up, reckless, lazy, or in some cases, pathological and maybe even criminal owners. Some feral dogs have feral humans as role models! I don't blame dogs, I blame the people who fail them. My grandfather used to say "the first rule of training a dog, you need to be smarter than the dog". 

That said, a few other things. No dog life is equal to a human life in my opinion, but that does not give free license for anyone to shoot a persons pet unless their personal safety and/or property is at risk. That does not include shooting someone's dog because it is annoying you. Dogs running deer in my experience is either the result of bored, unsupervised, family pets who have found a fun way to burn off energy, most of the time with at least one dog buddy. The ones I have seen are usually full bellied, sleep at the owners feet at night when they get home house pets, who's owners will flatly deny it's possible that "our dog would do such a thing", any more that there kid would cause the fights on the school bus. In fairness, in my neck of the woods it was the "locals" or lifelong country folk who took exception of leasing or confining their dogs, not the "City" folk. But, that is just my experience, and coming from an almost lifelong country boy.  

The other deer running has been the undesired behavior of hunting dogs, including more than one of my beagles. The drive to hunt by scent, and to give chase, is so bred into hounds that they simply will run at times until they collapse from exhaustion. Literally! It's a whole other story on hounds and hunting to get into, but suffice it to say, when even the best trained beagle is locked on a rabbit, or heaven help us a deer, they do not hear you and the only way to get them off is to intercept them. My beagles would no sooner attack a deer than attack me, but they sure could cause a nuisance, or maybe even get hit by a car or cause a wreck if chasing a deer across the road, and sadly they don't look both ways, nor do they read posted signs. Most beagles with time and effort can be broken from running deer, but some cannot, seeming to like the more powerful smell of deer over rabbit. However, even the best of them still can backslide into the behavior, and it's unthinkable that anyone would shoot someone else's dog in the field if they saw it happening. 

Lastly, deer season coincides with small game season, and small game hunters have every bit the right to be in the field as a deer hunter. I do both, but will admit that I would never take my hounds (when I had them)out during deer season, for the very actions of the guy in the article and people who endorse such behavior. Nuff said!     :  )

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by New York Hillbilly
grammar

[Doc]

21 hours ago, vizslas said:

I know completely well  where my rights start and stop. I have no problems with my dogs. birds on the other hand  look out. Sorry you couldn't keep your sheep safe. maybe you should have had a guard dog. instead of shooting the dogs. Are saying your a dog shooter?

It is amazing how wild some of these "house-pets" can be when they get out from under the control of their owners. The dogs that got into our sheep did so a couple nights in a row. And so we spent the next week with rifles up in the hay-mow, and they never came back until the very night that we gave up. These "house pets" had little trouble reverting back to their historical predator instincts. We were damned irritated that some thoughtless, irresponsible, S.O.B. put us in that position. But yes, we had every intention of shooting these "house pets" that had owners who thought it was great idea that there dogs had the freedom to run free and engage in their carnage on our flock, in the fenced-in barnyard on our property.

No we didn't get a chance to end the situation ourselves. As it turned out we didn't have to. Another farmer had better luck than we did.

So yes sometimes I do come off as a hard-case when people attempt to justify irresponsible dog ownership. I have no blame to assign to the dogs themselves because they are just doing what they instinctually do. It is a shame that the animals have to pay for the lack of responsibility of their owners.

 

[vizslas]

hey doc i dont blame you at all... i would have done the same thing. the girl across the street from my mom has a chicken killing husky . something  like thirty of them. Some how she saved it from an untimely death. my dogs are well trained i can turn my Vizsla's loose in a field and not worry about them. but listen to me. Once i turn them loose they are on their own ...... out of my control....Fortunately with the time and effort i have put into them they rarely if ever are they leashed up.And if i hunt rabbits with them they wear a bell so I know where they are at all times.. had some issues inn a state park when they were young but after a bout twenty minutes they came back. with a couple thorn apple stickers stuck in one of them. ouch. they were young but they again made their own choices....

[New York Hillbilly]

Hey Doc, you clearly get fired up over this subject. Given your statement that; "I have no blame to assign to the dogs themselves because they are just doing what they instinctually do. It is a shame that the animals have to pay for the lack of responsibility of their owners.", demonstrates your real anger is directed at the owners, and in effect the dogs are going to take one for the team to make the point. Further evidence of your displaced anger; "These "house pets" had little trouble reverting back to their historical predator instincts. We were damned irritated that some thoughtless, irresponsible, S.O.B. put us in that position." 

I'm not sure why you seem to take issue with my use of the term "house pet", which accurately describes my experience with deer running dogs. However, that is typically what I have encountered. As one example; my farmer neighbor as much as told me I was nuts that his dogs would run deer, because they were always laying there on is lawn when he came home. You should have seen the look on his face when I showed the trail camera pictures of the deer going by, and then his two fat, black labs in pursuit.  

I'm sorry you and Grow, had such troubles, and I fully get the anger, angst, and feeling the need to protect your property. However, when it gets to the point of laying awake for a week in a haymow with rifles, peering out waiting to ambush dogs, it appears to me, you're health and well being may be paying as great a cost as your livestock. 

With todays technology, and cameras everywhere you turn, perhaps a better alternative is to catch the dogs in action as I was able to do, and turn it over to the authorities. My guess is shooting the dogs lets the so called owners off easy and solves their problem, not necessarily the person being harassed, as they may open themselves to potential civil and legal action.  In any event, I'm glad your issue has been resolved. 

Not to make light of the subject, but I can honestly say you are the first person I have ever known that has "lost sleep by counting sheep".

Peace!

[growalot]

Well you read what happened when I had pictures,had managed to trap one having a 3rd party take it back...The person brought in dogs, took pics of said dogs leaving their barn then called the cops to report those dogs for attacking their blk. Angus in their barn..knowing full well it was their dog that did it!  JUST TO BE ABLE TO SELL THE STORY HER DOGS DIDN'T KILL MY GOATS. This is the same person that had her kid lie to police  That I threatened her the night I was doing the right thing and taking her to court over yet another one of her dogs killing my chickens. Having me arrested for child abuse. Oh ya so crazy that the lawyer I had to hire Never sent us a bill...The DA was discusted.So perhaps I would have been better off just SSS. I have every time done the right thing and called the DEC or cops...Even after shooting a dog as it's cohort charged me in a frenzied attack.They give warnings..after one such warning  another Nieghbor was attacked and sent to the hospital with dog bites on her daily walk. Not until then did those dogs get put down.... I preferred hitting these low life's in the pocket book..The problem is we are dealing with dog owning police that are just as freaking stupid as the people they are called to deal with.

Edited December 6, 2016 by growalot

[chas0218]

21 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

You ever bird hunt with a dog? I owned a Springer and if someone started lobbing rifle shots  at me/the dog while I was small game hunting they had better be ducking for cover. The dog was always working  inside 30 yards to me, 50-60 max  after the shot if I did my job.  The dog was always in a red jacket so should have been no excuses to mistake him. We hunted birds during bow but kept him home during regular season. 

Yes I have, but no where in the article it says the guy was small game hunting. It sounds like the the dogs were running deer and the land owner got sick of it. Too many people think because they live in the country their dogs have free reign on everyone's property. I don't agree with that and if my dogs didn't make it home one day because someone shot them then that would be on me. I don't think there are big enough fines for those that just let their dogs roam freely on others property. 

[left field]

The best way to deal with neighbouring dogs harassing livestock is a livestock guardian dog or LGD. 

There are a number that come to mind, but here's a decent short list: Kuvasz, Maremma, Kangal, Anatolian and if you're experienced enough, one of the Ovcharkas. These dogs will not leave your property and will kill anything four legged that attacks your livestock.

They do need to be managed around two-legged visitors.

[chas0218]

9 minutes ago, left field said:

The best way to deal with neighbouring dogs harassing livestock is a livestock guardian dog or LGD. 

There are a number that come to mind, but here's a decent short list: Kuvasz, Maremma, Kangal, Anatolian and if you're experienced enough, one of the Ovcharkas. These dogs will not leave your property and will kill anything four legged that attacks your livestock.

They do need to be managed around two-legged visitors.

Or a donkey, those things are vicious when protecting livestock. Not sure of the breed of donkey but there is one that was used to protect livestock from coyotes and it would actually kill them. Here is an article I saw. This one was in South Carolina. I would imagine same would go for any domestic dog too.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/buck-donkey-doesnt-take-crap-coyotes/

Edited December 6, 2016 by chas0218

[Culvercreek hunt club]

2 hours ago, chas0218 said:

Yes I have, but no where in the article it says the guy was small game hunting. It sounds like the the dogs were running deer and the land owner got sick of it. Too many people think because they live in the country their dogs have free reign on everyone's property. I don't agree with that and if my dogs didn't make it home one day because someone shot them then that would be on me. I don't think there are big enough fines for those that just let their dogs roam freely on others property. 

Doewacker runs bird dogs. I believe his point was if someone is shooting at his dogs it could just as easily be shooting at him. i grew up running rabbits with some great hounds. We never went out during deer season and back then it didn't take much to be tagged out becasue tags were so few. I almost think I remember a regulation for the Northern zone where you couldn't run dogs afield during open regular season. but that was a lot of years ago and my memory isn't what it use to be. 

[Merlot]

Less pets end up dead if owners train them well and keep them within their properties as best they can. Protecting them is almost like protecting your human family members. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

[gjs4]

If animals responded so consistently the a hats on here crying "train your dogs to stay out" may be able to hunt those Wiley whitetails better than they do.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pygmy]

2 hours ago, chas0218 said:

Or a donkey, those things are vicious when protecting livestock. Not sure of the breed of donkey but there is one that was used to protect livestock from coyotes and it would actually kill them. Here is an article I saw. This one was in South Carolina. I would imagine same would go for any domestic dog too.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/buck-donkey-doesnt-take-crap-coyotes/

Hehehehe..Reminds me of a story, Chas....

Quite a few years ago, when coyotes began to be common here in Steuben County, my ex-wife's sister decided she needed a donkey to protect her sheep herd from coyotes, even though she had never had any predation from either coyotes or dogs..

She got a donkey and put it in with her sheep...The donkey started killing her sheep, so my wife brought it to our empty pasture...My nephew decided  to keep a few young stock in the pasture, thinking they could hold their own against the donkey...The donkey savaged the cattle, kicking them and biting large chunks of flesh from them..

Nephew moved the poor, abused cows out,,,

Some of my wife's liberal , academic type friends ( she is a schoolteacher) convinced her that donkeys are social animals and NEED another animal in the pasture with them, or they feel bad or something. What it REALLY is , is that the wretched things need something to TORMENT, or they feel their time here on earth is wasted..

SOOOO, my (ex) wife bought another donkey...They co-exist nicely, kicking and biting huge chunks out of each other and generally have a grand time..If some other poor creature, like a cat or a dog, has the bad judgement to get into the pasture, they kill it, if they possibly can..

 

Donkeys live many years, and my ex wife will probably have the evil creatures as long as she lives..She deserves them....Hehehehehe..

I pick on my daughter, telling her that someday she will inherit her mothers donkeys....She has assured me that if that day ever comes  the creatures will go directly to the glue factory..

She is as fond of them as I am.....<<smile>>....

[growalot]

Let me point something out to you on get a guard dog..for one thing most guys on here have no idea what your talking about as far as costs. Then the feeding and vet bills ...I  had good fencing ....they literally chewed and tore through...I never needed to protect them from wild animals other the occatinal kid going missing...and the coyote that attacked and killed our very first goats...ripping them from the barn. Why did that happen?..because this same neighbor had an open sheep dump up on their property attraciing coyote to the area. They eventually dissipated. Now my animals confined on my land..I should not have to endure further expensive so anyone  owning a dog can  be allowed to have said dog run wild,period!

[left field]

We no longer live in a world where dogs are encouraged to run free (a good reason why castration propaganda is no longer relevant) so you need to contain your dog either in a compound or with a chain, and when out of your property, by lead or command. The first thing a new dog owner (pet or working) should train is a bomb proof recall and that includes calling your dog off a running animal. This will save your dog's life.

Dogs are there to serve a purpose. If I had a reasonably sized livestock farm I would have terriers to deal with the vermin, a herder to move my animals and an LGD to protect my herd. The expense of food and vet care (though there really isn't any reason to take your dog to a vet past puppyhood) is minimal compared to the stress and expense of losing an animal or the shitshow when you're forced to shoot a neighbour's dog.

 

[Uptown Redneck]

2 hours ago, growalot said:

I should not have to endure further expensive so anyone  owning a dog can  be allowed to have said dog run wild,period!

Do you have any idea how expensive lawyers are, I'm sure you would find out rather quickly after you are criminally and civilly charged if you should decide to carry out your foolish talk of shooting people's pets 

[growalot]

You sir obviously did not read any of what I wrote.

[Doc]

17 hours ago, New York Hillbilly said:

I'm sorry you and Grow, had such troubles, and I fully get the anger, angst, and feeling the need to protect your property. However, when it gets to the point of laying awake for a week in a haymow with rifles, peering out waiting to ambush dogs, it appears to me, you're health and well being may be paying as great a cost as your livestock. 

With todays technology, and cameras everywhere you turn, perhaps a better alternative is to catch the dogs in action as I was able to do, and turn it over to the authorities. My guess is shooting the dogs lets the so called owners off easy and solves their problem, not necessarily the person being harassed, as they may open themselves to potential civil and legal action.  In any event, I'm glad your issue has been resolved. 

 

Understand that at the time, the sheep represented a good chunk of our family income, and that it was dogs allowed to run loose and uncontrolled that forced us out of business. I think attempting to salvage the family business was worth a week of effort. You also need to realize that we were not into a "revenge" mode, but simply trying to salvage some small part of what was left of our business.

That is the problem with people who never give a second thought as to what their fuzzy little pets that they have turned loose on their neighbors are doing as they belittle the potential consequences to those around them. These are people who either callously don't give a damn, or think that their pets are incapable of the instant personality change that can come over even the most obedient and loving dogs.

I should also point out that taking a nice picture of the offending dogs does very little to stop the carnage. You will not find any sheriffs deputies these days that can or will go door to door across the county with a picture of some dogs trying to locate them. It is far more practical to anchor the offenders right there on the spot and put an immediate end to the threat.

[airedale]

This thread has been completely derailed, it was posted because of a hunter illegally shooting dogs because he said they were screwing up his hunt and not about livestock attacks. I have had the exact same thing happen to me when my neighbors black Lab showed up under my tree stand one time. I was not happy about it but I was sure as Hell not going to shoot and kill my neighbor's dog over it legal or not! 

Lousy owners, vicious dog attacks and livestock attacks, strays and packs of feral dogs roaming the woods and deliberately trespassing hunters using dogs are a completely different matter are for another thread. There are laws on the books to cover all of this stuff and a farmer or home owner can use the law to take of these problems, my advice is to follow the laws. 

I have a small farm myself and have had numerous run in's with dogs, l have good page fencing for the most part that keeps dogs and other predators out but there have been breaches. Foxes mostly get through and kill my chickens and they get shot but I have had a few instances where dogs got in. I am lucky that the cattle I have defend themselves very well and I have had to actually save a couple of dogs from the cattle killing them. But make no mistake about it if I found a pack of dogs in my pasture actually killing my livestock I would be completely within the law to defend my property and there will be lead in the air. 

Now back to the the hunter that killed his neighbor's dogs here is zero excuse for what he did, he could have yelled at those dogs or fired a shot into the ground and I would bet anything those dogs would have high tailed it for home. No this idiot kills the dogs, cuts off their collars, buries them under a brush pile and makes a post on facebook bragging about it. That is what the story of this thread is about and there is no way anyone should condone it! 

This guy is going to to pay dearly for a stupid act and as far as I am concerned he should get the book thrown at him. Anyone, especially hunters who think it is OK to shoot a dog while you are out in the woods had best remember it is against the law and if you get caught be prepared to pay the consequences which will be severe.

 

Al

Edited December 7, 2016 by airedale

[Culvercreek hunt club]

8 minutes ago, airedale said:

Now back to the the hunter that killed his neighbor's dogs here is zero excuse for what he did,

 

And I think that is why the thread went another direction. I can't see how anyone could justify what happened here so the conversation expanded. Your one sentence about sums it all up in this case. 

[BigVal]

Yeah if I saw a dog while I was in the woods I wouldn't shoot it unless it was an immediate threat to myself or a hunting partner, looked very sick, or was a coyote.

[growalot]

Airdale I couldn't agree more..Now here is another true story to ponder for such people. 

Two months ago I run into one of the lease guys wife...In conversation she mentioned their Shepherd was hit and killed in front of their house by a car... The driver said hey it just ran out and I couldn't see it...big bog. She goes into the details then says " We doubt it was accidental. " It was the same guy that accused her husband of shooting his dog during hunting season. He's been accused more than once . Just no proof..he actually has his kid or guys he allows to hunt the lease do it. (Yes they all talk )  Any ways that happened,dog shot,several years ago...pay back has a long memory for some and they now have to live with knowing they were the cause of their dog dying in  ditch.

I do not know what prompted that guy to shoot those dogs ,I do not know if he called them in, in the past..just to see  warnings  given and no action. The lease guy..knowing him.doubtful a call was made. I do know the DEC and the cops need to be better trained on what a problem this is and ticket owners not listen  excuses and lies. One neighbor wouldn't have scars and I wouldn't have been taken to the hospital by ambulance. Every story has some sort of back ground..the guy was wrong..but I say that not knowing what was the back ground. So I'm not going to go to simple " buck" greed.