My posted property that has a stream running thru it , trespassers

[wolc123]

I am guessing that your problem is made worse by your posted signs.  Those things attract poachers and other hoodlums (litter bugs, etc), like flies on crap. These are simple-minded folks.  To them, "posted" means "good hunting, or fishing".

No one is allowed to trespass on private property without the land-owner's permission anyhow.  Save yourself some time and effort, loose those signs, and maybe your littering issue will improve.

Do they throw their garbage down near your signs ?

[First-light]

Here on the Island people always bitch about people walking on their beach getting to and from fishing spots. They own up to the high water mark. So when the tied is out you legally walk all you want.

[wolc123]

It is funny that this issue is coming up now.  About 50 years ago, the county decided to reroute a creek that runs across our farm.   They did that to eliminate a couple of road bridges, which required lots of maintenance. The creek used to meander around in a twisted course.  Now it is dug straight across, East-West. 

Oddly enough, google maps still shows the original course, but obviously the satellite view don't match that.  My concern centers on the fact that I was operating an unlicensed motorboat on that creek yesterday.  Since I own the land under the creek, was I breaking the law ?

My concrete bridge makes it non-navigatable from upstream, however one could paddle upstream, a quarter mile or so, from neighboring property downstream.   The issue is complicated because the maps do nor accurately depict the creek's current course.

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by wolc123

[Chef]

And there’s where it gets tricky. The example that I have Experience with, Honeoye creek, for a lot of the summer is dry with a small mostly shallow running creek with deeper pockets that hold fish. When it rains a lot and in the spring, it’s quite a bit deeper and in most places 30 feet or more wide. The DEC officer pointed out that the defined creek bed, even when dry, is not private property. In the pictures below you can see what I mean.

He is correct though the high water mark is the line that matters


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[silent death]

38 minutes ago, First-light said:

Here on the Island people always bitch about people walking on their beach getting to and from fishing spots. They own up to the high water mark. So when the tied is out you legally walk all you want.

Same way on the hudson river ...you can walk anywhere on the shore  as long as you dont go passed the hi tide mark... seen alot of arguemants happen over this bs ...most people put posted signs up right off the shorelines now where the water stops ..nothing like watching a dick property owner get put in there place bye encon

Edited March 28, 2021 by silent death

[phantom]

14 minutes ago, silent death said:

Same way on the hudson river ...you can walk anywhere on the shore  as long as you dont go passed the hi tide mark... seen alot of arguemants happen over this bs ...most people put posted signs up right off the shorelines now where the water stops ..nothing like watching a dick property owner get put in there place bye encon

yep , that is  why  I have always just kept to the wet areas even if its 1 inch deep  with my kayak in many different places  that  I have been to and no one  says nothing but as soon as you step on dry  land even if its low tide some people will complain but technically its what WNYBuckHunter said if water flows in that path or area at some point in time river bed high tide to low tide  areas extra  its public . 

[phantom]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

Not true above a natural falls is not.  though stream. May be deep enough above  if you need to get out and drag or Portage any point to terminus above that  natural obstacle is not navigable. 

I think if any part of the body of water is navigable  or at   anytime of the year  they count that as public  so you have a river with falls still public you have a river bed still public  a beaver dam public  since usually streams empty into rivers then into  lakes or ocean basically its all  public  since there all connected  . You could try and litigate that but probably not going to work . 

[G-Man]

8 minutes ago, phantom said:

I think if any part of the body of water is navigable  or at   anytime of the year  they count that as public  so you have a river with falls still public you have a river bed still public  a beaver dam public  since usually streams empty into rivers then into  lakes or ocean basically its all  public  since there all connected  . You could try and litigate that but probably not going to work . 

This was big thing in Adirondack a few years ago.. legal nys definition  

The regulations define New York State's navigable waters to include “lakes, rivers and other waterways and water bodies on which water vessels with a capacity of one or more persons are operated or can be operated notwithstanding interruptions to navigation by artificial structures, shallows, rapids or other ...

www.dot.ny.gov › opdm › 0...

PDF

Chapter 4.4.4: Navigable Waters - New York State

[helmut in the bush]

They're trespassing, My house is 75' from a river and I'm sick of Steelhead fishermen , I call the Cops a few times a week

[Trad bow]

Interesting topic , when I was younger two of my buddies and I were standing in a tributary of Lake Ontario that was before the first barrier impassable by fish however both steam banks were posted. We thought because we were in a navigable water way we were ok , the land owner saw us and called the state police.  The officer came down to the water and walked us back to our car and had us follow him to the troopers barracks where the Encon officer was waiting.  The Encon officer explained the someone had recently shot the land owners pet ducks while they were in the creek and left them so he was pressing charges on anyone who was fishing there.  Everyone was very good about it and I still have a picture of my and the largest steelhead I have ever caught standing in front of the troopers car before the Encon officer confiscated it.  We received tickets and had to appear in town court.   The judge fined us $10.00 each .  What I remember the most was both the judge and Encon officer told us not to let this discourage us from our love of the outdoors. 

[Lucky118]

Or have a talk with the kids about the trash and let them run in the woods. Hard enough fot kids to get out now and run the woods.  I was spoiled i grew up in the 80s and we could go any where we wanted and very few people threw a fit. Mostly just the crotchety  old shut ins bitched. Everyone complains kifs don't  get outside  enough but don't  want them near their property. Doesnt  make sense.

[left field]

But did you toss your garbage around? That's the bitch.

If luber knows who they are then he can talk to their parents. That can go either way.

I have a similar situation. Private road that is used by the people who don't own it as an ATV track (which rips it up) and as a repository for their beer cans. Drives me insane but I have limited options. 

[diplomat019]

2 hours ago, Lucky118 said:

Or have a talk with the kids about the trash and let them run in the woods. Hard enough fot kids to get out now and run the woods.  I was spoiled i grew up in the 80s and we could go any where we wanted and very few people threw a fit. Mostly just the crotchety  old shut ins bitched. Everyone complains kifs don't  get outside  enough but don't  want them near their property. Doesnt  make sense.

YES!!!! 

[Lucky118]

On 3/28/2021 at 3:55 PM, left field said:

But did you toss your garbage around? That's the bitch.

If luber knows who they are then he can talk to their parents. That can go either way.

I have a similar situation. Private road that is used by the people who don't own it as an ATV track (which rips it up) and as a repository for their beer cans. Drives me insane but I have limited options. 

Probably. I was a jackass kid lol

[knehrke]

Man, all kinds of weird situations, no one-size-fits-all answers. I know that out west they put barbed wire across the rivers so that the drift boats can't pass. Other streams you can neither anchor nor fish in certain areas, but you are allowed to float through. Here in NYS, my understanding is that if you own both sides of a creek, then you own the bottom of the creek too, but not the water itself if it's a navigable waterway. But in the end, it's all about what you're willing to enforce, rights or not. The Dougluston Salmon Run needed to go to court to protect their rights, albeit controversial. If you are not willing to do that, then maybe it's best to have a conversation, perhaps allow a few folks access in return for their participation in an annual work day to keep the place clean, and to patrol for violators. Word of mouth is powerful. 

[luberhill]

On 3/28/2021 at 12:45 PM, wolc123 said:

I am guessing that your problem is made worse by your posted signs.  Those things attract poachers and other hoodlums (litter bugs, etc), like flies on crap. These are simple-minded folks.  To them, "posted" means "good hunting, or fishing".

No one is allowed to trespass on private property without the land-owner's permission anyhow.  Save yourself some time and effort, loose those signs, and maybe your littering issue will improve.

Do they throw their garbage down near your signs ?

The signs went up long after me cleaning up their garbage several times 

[luberhill]

On 3/28/2021 at 6:44 PM, diplomat019 said:

YES!!!! 

Trashing it with mounds of garbage is the reason I posted it

[left field]

Are they walking through or partying? Camping?

Why do they have tarps?

[wolc123]

2 hours ago, luberhill said:

The signs went up long after me cleaning up their garbage several times 

Has the littering gotten worse since the signs went up ?  A posted sign had some similarities to a gun control law.  It will stop law abiding folks but not hoodlums.  Basically, just a waste of your time.

[luberhill]

2 hours ago, wolc123 said:

Has the littering gotten worse since the signs went up ?  A posted sign had some similarities to a gun control law.  It will stop law abiding folks but not hoodlums.  Basically, just a waste of your time.

Nope nothing so far but summer brings on the punks

[luberhill]

4 hours ago, left field said:

Are they walking through or partying? Camping?

Why do they have tarps?

They set up makeshift camps , leave all their garbage behind , cans , bottles , condoms , papers , waste 

[GreeneHunter]

On 3/28/2021 at 9:09 AM, luberhill said:

Can people walk down the stream thru my property ?

I own the land on either side of the stream .

 I assume I own the land under the stream too 

Not sure how that works 

Everything I read online says I own the land under the stream and as soon as someone crosses my land to get to the stream they are trespassing .

I really wouldn’t care but the kids are going there and trashing it... all kinds of crap , garbage , tarps etc

Grab a couple of broken Trail Cam's and take a ladder into the woods and Hang em High and just forget them , may want to check on them infrequently ! If nothing else they make the place spooky ! Make sure you write the numbers #2 , #3 and #4 .... there is no #1 but they don't know that !  LOL

[phade]

Navigable water is one of the most sour niche topics on land ownership; short of access/egress/easement.

I've only had one hunting related issue with it (someone walking down a creek), and it burns me to this day. I don't see fishing as nearly as much of an issue IMO, esp if they are respectful, but hunting just seems like a crapshow, personal opinion.

And, it's very easy to argue small creeks are navigable. All you need is evidence of a high water mark...once a year.

[Northcountryman]

2 minutes ago, phade said:

Navigable water is one of the most sour niche topics on land ownership; short of access/egress/easement.

I've only had one hunting related issue with it (someone walking down a creek), and it burns me to this day. I don't see fishing as nearly as much of an issue IMO, esp if they are respectful, but hunting just seems like a crapshow, personal opinion.

And, it's very easy to argue small creeks are navigable. All you need is evidence of a high water mark...once a year.

They need to revise that aspect of the law to allow for subjective reasoning when considering whether a waterway is truly considered "navigable". To me, navigable should mean "readily navigable" for a significant part of the year--what that means currently,  IDK , but I'm sure they could establish parameters/guidelines for its delineation as such. 

[left field]

13 hours ago, luberhill said:

They set up makeshift camps , leave all their garbage behind , cans , bottles , condoms , papers , waste 

This is something very different than walking down a stream. It sounds like situation for the local police.