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the solution is to let armed citizens defend against these things things. train and arm all teachers first shot bang he is dead in the office game over.

Not the problem. Your thread title should read "how to get and keep the wackos off the streets."

After reading several threads about the Sandy Hook tragedy and gun control I am dumbfounded with all the personal attacks, insults and mudslinging that is being hurled on this forum. The fact remains that there are 26 people dead at the hands of a person who as of now we don't know the reason or motive behind this brutal tragedy other than the fact that he was mentally unstable. This is not the first time and we all know that sadly it will not be the last time something like this will happen. Good points have been made on both sides of the argument for and against more gun control. With all the arguments going back and forth I know one thing for certain, there is one common denominator - both pros and the antis do not like hearing or seeing events like what happened on Friday or this past summer in the Aurora movie theater and in the Sikh temple in Wisconsin or the mall in Oregon just this past week. Just today some guy was arrested for threatening to set his wife on fire and then shooting up a school for goodness sake. With that common denominator in mind, rather than tossing insults, don't you all think that actually coming up with a solution or several solutions which some on here have already suggested, so that we can come to some sort of compromise that will appease both sides to prevent these tragedies in the future? Isn't that the common goal we all want to achieve? The pro-gunners' argument usually hinges on arming everyone in the country and the anti's argument usually hinges on doing away with all guns in this country and allowing only the government to possess firearms. These arguments have gone in circles and have not done anything to prevent these tragedies. I think we all agree that there is not just one cause to the problem our society is facing that is resulting in these mass murders. There are several root causes among them a combination of which include lack of interest or care by parents in the home, broken homes, violence on TV, in movies and in video games, and mental illness which is abundant in our country and often times difficult to detect let alone control. So where and how do we begin? I am not sure where or how but firstly, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that we need to stop the mudslinging and insults against one another - that is just going to get us nowhere. Secondly we need to address and deal with the root causes mentioned above. Even though I'm a strong proponent of the 2nd amendment and I will defend my right as well as those of fellow responsible gun owners to own firearms to protect ourselves and our families, there have to be some checks and balances in place to prevent mentally unstable people from having "access to" weapons of any kind. We've all heard it before and we will continue to hear it said that gun control laws do not get illegal guns off the street - they just prevent law abiding citizens from protecting ourselves. With that also in mind although the guns that were used in the Sandy Hook massacre were legally purchased and registered to the mother who was a gun enthusiast, doesn't being a responsible gun owner mean making sure that your guns are locked up and inaccessible other than to you when you are not present and especially when you know you have a family member who has a known mental illness living in your home? Shouldn't those gun owners who find themselves in that situation be held accountable (except of course this kid's mother who can't be held accountable anymore as she was the first one killed)? Now putting aside the disgruntled employees who shoot up their workplace, isn't it usually the "quiet ones" or "socially awkward ones" that are the ones committing these vicious crimes for no apparent reason? Why are we as a people doing anything more to keep them in check? As we all know when we purchase long guns like the one used in the Sandy Hook tragedy, we have to go through somewhat of a background check. Maybe that background check should be a little bit more thorough to be able to weed out those with mental illnesses and those who have mentally ill members living in their home. Why shouldn't there be a follow up check for those who fill out the paperwork and who mark "no" when asked if there is a history of mental illness in one's family? Why are gun dealers taking people's word for it instead of having the ability to investigate further? Moreover, just like there is a registry once you become a convicted felon, or a terrorist on a do not fly watch list, or a sex offender on a registry, why shouldn't there be a registry for those who have been diagnosed with mental illnesses? There will be those who will be offended by this suggestion, but to bring you all back to reality, one common denominator had between most of these past shooters is mental instability and easy access to firearms. I'm not saying that there should be or there shouldn't be such a registry, but there needs to be some kind of stronger checks and balances system in place that will ensure that firearms do not fall into the hands of mentally unstable people. Maybe we should allow law abiding citizens, who are mentally stable, and who are properly trained to handle a firearm to be able to carry. As we already know and many of us agree, these shooters always target a place where the victims are defenseless, i.e. theaters, schools, churches, temples and the like. We certainly never hear of or read about a shooter targeting a police station. Maybe just maybe if these shooters knew that there was a possibility that one or more persons in the school, the theater, the temple, or the mall was carrying, they would think twice about carrying out their plans. I just read this morning that in a school in Texas, teachers are permitted to be armed provided that they go through the proper channels for obtaining a CC permit for their state/county. Why are there less acts of violence like theses in states where the right to carry is more prevalent? Because these punks know that they will meet with armed resistance. There is no right or wrong answer to any of the foregoing. But if we all want these tragedies to end, then there needs to be a plan of attack put into place. The insults and mudslinging need to be put aside and "we the people" including politicians, hunters, liberals and conservatives, pros and antis need to bang our heads together until we come up with a solution. Until this is done, these tragedies will continue to happen well into the future.

No more stupid than using such a tragedy to further an anti gun agenda... this is not remotely about guns... just a tool used in a senseless crime... could have been poison, a bomb or piano wire... this is about the break down of our society and family unit with liberal progressive thinking... until we start realizing that.. you can take away all the guns in the world and it won't do a lick of good. smart decisions are made with the head... rash decisions are made with the heart... we should be using our hearts to feel for the people affected by this tragedy and use our heads to solve it... thinking that this is about guns is a knee jerk reaction made in the hearts of people not a realistic solution thought out with ones head. How's this for stupid? Keep pushing the gun issue and see where that gets you with these kinds of heinous crimes...

mankinds violence towards each other is not something that just surfaced because of video games or TV shows, we have been killing and maiming each other from the very beginning folks, yea its true. just look at Americas short history or even more recent events around the globe for proof of that. it always amazes me that when something horrible happens at the hands of member of the human race that we can all stand there and act so amazed and repeatedly ask why, why, why.

Back to the topic please. It was mentioned that hunters need some type of organization that promotes their image? Some of you may not like this thought, but that organization is already there, although many hunters and gun owners hate it as much as the anti's do. That's because they listen to what the mass media says about it, rather than getting their info from the organization itself. The one expert organization on the subject of guns, gun rights, hunting and target shooting is the NRA. With the inevitable onslaught of gun control measures that are about to be forced upon law abiding gun owners of all stripes, the only thing that is going to stop politicians from suceeding, is a united front on behalf of all gun owners in America. There are only about 3 mllion members in the NRA now, so Obama feels he will be able to get Congress to agree they are not a threat to their re-election down the road. But if there were 50, or 100 million NRA members, the politicians wouldn't even consider making law abiding gun owners pay for the sins of these crazed killers. I know some will say the NRA is bad, makes us look bad, is extreme, is BS, etc., etc. But the fact is, they are comprised of just regular gun owners, that have always been the big stick in the gun control fight, have had many sucesses in the battle, defend all gun owners and totally support the 2nd Amendment in every respect. Some folks believe they make us all look bad because they don't compromise. But if you understand why they don't compromise and support those positions, you will see the anti-gun agenda and bad gun law proposals stop. If you don't join the NRA, or worse yet, attack the NRA in public forums like this one, you prove to the anti's a lot of gun owners can be stripped of their rights willingly, to buy a little perceived protection for themselves from the anti's. That means you are willing to let gun ownership become a privilege and forgo the 2nd Amendment rights you currently have. That will be the beginning of the end of gun rights in America. They may not be perfect, but right now, in this fight, they are the best hope that we have got. If you don't join the NRA now, you can kiss the 2nd Amendment, as we know it today, good-bye. This is my opinion on the subject. Gun owners didn't cause these problems in America, but they are going to be made to pay the price for them, even if it won't make any effective difference in solving the problem. United we win. Divided, we have already lost. It is the government's responsibilty to correct the problem, but is our responsibility to see the problem is effectively corrected without taking the rights of American citizens away.

Well, certainly in schools, increased security could be improved. Was it here or on the other thread where somebody was talking about schools that had designated conceal and carry outfitted teachers. Maybe it's time to examine that zero tolerance policy that schools have against weapons on school property and actually develop extensive background checks and training programs and appoint designated teachers to become defenders in events of domestic terrorism and other such emergencies. We have various people in schools already that are tasked with various special duties during emergencies. I would add just one more category of safety monitor(s). Also, some rather secure chain link property boundary barriers with access restricted to one entrance that could be manned. I don't see anything wrong with that sort of thing. Anyone coming into school would have to get by that guy. We are mandated to send our children to school. Measures should be taken there to guarantee their safety.

this also was something i found... I decided to have an email waiting for my elected representatives on Monday to preempt the Schumers of the world. I spent a fair amount of time on it, trying to strike the right tone. If anyone else would like to use it, either partially or completely, by all means help yourself. Congressman *******, My best Christmas wishes to you and your family for this holiday season. It is with a heavy heart that I write to you today...the events taking place in Connecticut deeply trouble and sadden all of us. No doubt some of your colleagues from New York and other more civilized places of the country are anxious to use this tragedy to push their agenda for civilian disarmament. I urge you to reject their emotional pleas and remind you that the self defense is a natural right granted by God and arms are merely the tools to exercise that right. Both of these rights were recognized by our founding fathers when writing the second amendment. Yes, it is true; this heinous act was committed by a madman with firearms. Of that, let there be no doubt. However, the greater tragedy would be to attempt to strip Americans of the tools to effectively exercise their God given rights. It should be noted that this atrocity and other recent ones, all took place in areas where arms were prohibited. In these cases, unfortunately law biding citizens followed the law and no amount of laws, regulations or decrees will prevent recurrence of this type of evil. Indeed, it will only be encouraged by its success when confronted by cowardice instead of courage. Israel confronts this type of evil daily, and I encourage you to research their methods for combating these atrocities. It is possible that nothing could have prevented this; however as a “Handgun Permit” holder and also a veteran, I assure you I would have welcomed the opportunity to try, as would have many others. On this issue, it should be noted that it trumps all others in my voting patterns. I simply do not trust elected officials to follow the law who do not trust me to do the same. Therefore any votes you cast for any type of gun control, is effectively a vote against yourself. Edmond Burke once said and I believe “The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” The only response in the face of evil is courage, any other response just breeds more evil. My Best Regards, ***********

Saw this AP story online, it puts things in perspective. As lawfull gun possesion has increased. Mass shootings have decreased. http://news.yahoo.com/no-rise-mass-killings-impact-huge-185700637.html?.tsrc=samsungwn&.sep=phone

Ever think about this... Firearms are 100% illegal in Mexico.Yet they lead the WORLD in gun crimes. If guns were never invented there would be another way to cause harm to many people.

i would take that bet. Shouldn't be so quick to assume on peoples capabilities.Just cause you don't have confidence in your archery skill doesn't mean others aren't capable of it.

Texas school where teachers carry guns prepared to protect students At the time the plan was put in place, Harrold, about 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth, was the only known public school district in Texas and the U.S. that allowed staff members and teachers to carry concealed weapons. Thweat said he knows of some other districts that have since adopted similar policies, but declined to name them. Harrold school officials do not announce which teachers are "packing" and those participating must have proper concealed carry licenses. They must also be approved by the school board to carry on school grounds. http://www.star-tele...nk=omni_popular

this was posted elsewhere online but i think it hits the nail on the head and so i decided to share it with you all.... Way back in "The day" The strong, adventurous and freedom loving of the slaves/serfs of Europe made the uncertain trek of traveling to the "New World" A land of danger, but also of opportunity, if you were tough enough and worked hard. It took a very different person to make the trip and to dare to challenge the environment carving your home from the wilderness. Why did they do it? First, there was something different in their genes. And they no longer wanted to exist at the whim of the King, Lord, Emperor, Konig, Etc.... whatever RULER was holding their balls at the time. These emigrants faced many challenges. Their lives were in constant danger from disease, starvation/malnutrition and deprivation and wildlife as well as the most prevalent danger of those two legged animals, man (white, red or whatever). Yet they still came. The brave came. The strong survived. They had sons and daughters. Most of which never lived to adulthood. The average life expectancy of Americans in Colonial times was less than 25 years. Yet they still came. They moved west in the thousands....And died in the thousands. Yet they still came. The strong. The ones that YEARNED for freedom. As they reproduced, those genes that made them what they were were passed on to future generations. The weak. Those that lacked the genes of strong, hard willed freedom-loving people stayed where they were. Slaves. Serfs. Ruled. And they passed on their genes as well. They are satisfied with what they have. They like to be ruled. I do not fault them for that. It is what they want. They gave up their right or ability to resist tyranny many years ago when they allowed their ruler of the week to disarm them. The possibility of again being ruled by a tyrannical government is programmed from their psyche. I wish them well on this wishful thinking as they MUST accept whatever lot in life they are dealt. Our problem here in America NOW is that we are becoming soft. We allowed the installation of "Gun Free" zones. Places where bad guys can feel safe to kill as many defenseless people as they wish, with impunity. Too many of our men have relinquished their duty to protect our females and our children by allowing themselves to be helpless. Banning guns sounds like the simple solution to some. But what would that solve? It is already illegal to murder people. What are you going to do? Charge the punk with 28 counts of murder and two counts of illegally possessing a firearm? Sounds kind of stupid to me. The founding fathers of America saw the evil of the European tyrants. They were determined that we in America would ALWAYs retain the ability to resist. THAT is why the second amendment to our constitution is the MOST important one. It is not about collecting "cool" guns, target shooting, sport or hunting. It is about resisting tyranny. Some day (SOON) I think, we will need it. Yes, very soon. MEN, protect your families and arm yourselves!!!

Maybe you should change that statement to: the gun owners are not willing to make any more concessions. History is littered with the failed brainchilds of the antis. Many which represent harrassments to legitimate gun owners rather than constructive restrictions aimed at real solutions. It is time to end this constant assault against gun owners. The problem of criminal violence can not be solved on the backs of law abiding gun owners. First because they don't work, and second it just plain is wrong and anti democratic in their approach. Yes, I think the the gun owners have conceded plenty over the years and it never is enough because it is the wrong end of the problem. It is designed to harness the law abiding and ignore the "slap-on-the-wrist" administration of existing laws. In other words, the efforts of the antis is focused on the law abiding while at the same time creating more permissiveness and loopholes for the law braekers. And then we sit around all "dumbfounded" that we are in the situation that we are in. The fact is that it is this kind of backward campaign against the law abiding that results in one more reason for keeping the reasonable access to weapons for self protection. The incremental path to private firearms removal has got to cease and work put toward criminal control where it belongs.

I hope there is a solution we can all live with and it saves the lives of innocent people. This world has really changed, I pray my kids can bring up their children in a world that I remember. I'm 1 year short of 50 a never could remember horrific actions like this when I was a young individual. God bless those lost to these crimes.

I really hope there isn't a nutball out there that starts strangling people with piano wire... I would hate to never be able to hear a piano again.

Agree with you 1000%! On CNN the other day there was a staff consultant that was a retired Nassau police officer. He was making a suggestion & CNN cut him off. Basically, he though permit holders & legal gun (handgun) owners should have their application and living circumstances reviewed perodically. No more - simply apply, get the background check and then accumulate guns the rest of your life unquestioned. Another option (IMHO) migh be for pobably the ATF to have a database of legal gun owners that could be cross checked with medical & prescription records. I got my permit decades ago and I'm pretty sure they have no clue if I'm residing with a felon, undergoing psychiatric help, an addict or taking anti-depressants. This would inclue any individuals residing where the guns are kept. We just had a small local gun shop out in the middle of "nowhere" get robber, 60+ mostly handguns stolen. Should they make the facilities that sell guns abide by more strict security/building codes? I think so. Problem is, gun owners are not willing to make any concessions to avoid what was described above. I can foresee in the future all guns will be checked into an armory/local PD and signed out for a single 24hr useage, then checked back in. More than likely won't solve any of the fore mentioned issues, but some might think it would control them better. If, as gun owners we can't come up with legitimate suggestions and possible concessions - They'll strike down the 2nd admendment.

Just felt like defecating on thread with the rest of ya!

Wow are you really that out of touch. Sorry I did not respond sooner but I was out today living my life not sitting at the computer all day like a few of you overachievers. I never brag about the bucks I shoot. In fact I keep the information about the bucks I shoot pretty much to a small select group of friends beause I have delt with this same exact male ego nonsense before. I have never put a pic of any of the bucks on this type of website and have never entered them in P&Y because I do not need the attention. I am not saying I am against someone who does just not my thing. I brought it up to sits in trees in response to his sexiest and condescending post to me where he tried pulling the men are superiour to woman crap. Apprently your a liitle slow and did/could not pick up that in his post so what better time to let him know that I have killed bigger bucks than him than after a sexiest post like that. Now you and your highy intellicual friend from Tug Hill want to think I shot them High Fence or that I am lying even better. Great! Makes me feel that much better knowing that it gets under your skin because you were "chicked".

time for coyotes for me also .

Rain just killed me plans. I did get my deer this year so it was definitely a great season for me. No complaints. Now, to turn my attention to predators and late season squirrels.

When you say "we all know the answers are no" Who do you mean by "we all" ?

Not true, but feel free to continue dragging your grudge across the forum. Early has in fact contradicted his or her self in this thread, and yes, its my opinion that early doesnt have a clue. So what?

It will be near impossible to account for all the guns and who has possession of them, the gun laws are so varied from state to state there's no way to keep things in check.........in NYS it's illegal for a convicted felon to possess a firearm, yet how many purchase ammo and a hunting license every year? when they go in to purchase a hunting license or ammo a red flag should pop up and the authorities should be alerted.

I'm interested in the hi point but, your to far! Good luck in the sale!

And yet you continue to attack the type of gun. You constantly talk out of both sides of your mouth. Yes, because of your ignorance, or lack of knowledge about the things you speak of.

All you have to do is read the hunter harassment laws. Here, Ill post it for you... http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$ENV11-0110$$@TXENV011-0110+&LIST=SEA2+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=01990692+&TARGET=VIEW So, like I said, if there have already been documented issues concerning hunting between the two neighbors, and one of them goes out and starts cutting down trees on opening morning, in a location thats going to obviously prevent the other guy from hunting, it will be considered hunter harassment. And BTW, just because you say they are facts, doesnt make them so. Youve been proven wrong on legal matters before on this site.

Timothy McVeigh, Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, Adam Laska. Who do you think makes sure we know these as house hold names? The media who would be happy if we all never had any guns. They sensationalize these events, which has a very negative effect. I am not saying the news should not be broadcast, I am saying stop making them heroes in some peoples eyes. They get their 15 minutes of fame, and others want that. Since this happened, all that has been on any news channel is this. Now they are psyco analyzing the survivors and first responders on tv. Come on report it and move on. If you want to be remembered forever, shoot a place up and your name is immortalized. Since the shooting started, it is all that is on tv and as time goes by the story has changes every hour. Stop making them martyrs in the media, maybe it would happen less. As the media frenzy starts, so does the anti frenzy. The president (ans I use the term loosely) could not wait to get on tv and say we need to fix this regardless of politics, with a fake tear running down his face for affect. But no one uses these tragedies to forward an agenda. YEAH RIGHT John Beighnor cries he is a weakling The president cries he is a great man. See the bias here. I doubt very many will.

Now don't be misleading people with that comment. According to you, if I pull over and shoot at wild game, because the vehicle is not movin,g it's legally ok. ........... NOT TRUE! Let's not be giving out bogus info relating to laws. I don't want to think that something on this site might mis-lead members into getting a fairly serious ticket. I'm hoping that this video is from some other state where this sort of thing is legal. But don't anyone try it here in NYS.

Here's another reason.

I have to laugh when some of you say that the dusk and dawn are the best times for seeing deer.. you really mean that is the best time for the hunters that sit in the same spot all day to see deer. That is not my experience, or the experience of most of the hunters that I know... the best time to see deer is anytime we are in the woods. Again, there will always be those that hunt close to the edge of the rules no matter what the rules are... 1/2 hour before sunup and sundown will turn in to 35 minutes, then 40 minutes, then 45 minutes. Mainly because most hunters couldn't even tell you what time sunup and sundown are. No law is going to change that. The laws are created to save stupid people from themselves.

It won't work to prevent something like this but for your general repeat offenders, bring back prison hulks. Take all this trash and stick them out in the ocean on old retired cargo vessels. Take away all the dirty magazines, cable TV and other creature comforts, feed them gruel twice a day and every other day walk down the cell block with a fire hose pumping water out of the ocean. Let them spend a couple years in that and they'll never want to go back. Any croak during their stay tip them over the gunnels and let the sharks clean them up.

Ho-Ho-Ho.

7:30 this morning, I shot at a doe as it climbed up an embankment of a river at 60 yds. and hit it low in the chest. She went 20 yds. and stood still for about 10 minutes (no follow up shot opportunity) and then bed down. I watched her for about an hour and she had her head up, but was not moving. I decided to back out and I came back 5 long hours later to find her gone from her bed. I followed the blood trail 30 yds. and there she laid under a fallen tree. I am sad that I din't make a clean kill, but I am glad that I found her and din't let her go to waste.

Stewart Rhodes of Oathkeepers made a statement hitting on a good point. Oath Keepers: The Federal Government is Guilty Accomplice in School Shooting in Newtown By Stewart Rhodes, Founder of Oath Keepers There has been a horrendous mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. At this time, 27 people are reported dead, most of them children. This shooting is yet another tragic example of the failed, grotesque insistence on helpless victim zones where any crazed gunman can be assured of a large number of disarmed, undefended, helpless victims, all crammed into one place, where he can kill many children before an armed defender arrives from elsewhere. It is disturbing and sick that the federal government so hates the right of the American people to bear arms, and so hates their natural right to self defense, that the government insists on making them helpless, disarmed victims for anyone who cares to kill them. And in this case, all of the teachers and staff were willfully disarmed by the Federal Government, by force of law and threat of prison, to ensure that they would be disarmed and incapable of saving the lives of the children entrusted to their care. That makes the Federal Government complicit in the deaths of these children, and in fact an accessory to their mass murder, by forcibly disarming (with the very real threat of prison) all the teachers, all the staff, and any parent who may have been on school property. That stupid law guaranteed the shooters would meet no immediate armed resistance, which is exactly what is needed to stop such an attack. Continue: http://oathkeepers.o...wn-connecticut/

As it layed when I spotted it...

I place blame on those who know the people who do these things and know they are unstable and do nothing to help them or notify some one that can stop them. As a culture we always try to wrap our heads around why, to try to understand how it could happen. The truth is our brains are not able to come close to making sense out of a heinous act because the person doing it has a brain that is effectively broken. I have heard the 20yr old shooter may have had a form of autism called Assbergers, this is not a mental illness and no amount of gun control will be able to detect some one like him. His mother and others that knew him knew what he could have been capable of so the blame lies with them, he should not have had access to guns and she should not have had them where he could get them. My son has Autism, maybe even the same diagnosis as the shooter, and I know full well that he should never have access to guns or even knives for that matter because when he goes off he can not control himself or what he says and does even. Unfortunately the media, and people in general seem to focus on gun control instead of how to prevent things from getting so bad in the first place for sick people, as a nation we need to open our eyes to those around us that may need help and stop burying our heads in the sand. If you know some one that is unstable try to get them help or tell some one else at the very least that can help them.

I agree with Bubba...Don't you wonder why these sickos don't target police stations or ANYWHERE that they know there will be armed resistance ? They always target areas where they know there will be lots of helpless victims and a MINIMUM chance of armed resistance. They are sick, cowardly peices of s**t and most of them shoot themslves rather than face the retribution they know is coming when the police finally get there.

Looks good from my house.Nice trophy.

Now thats 'puuuurdy', I still have a couple of days and I know there are at least two good bucks still in my area. Im ever the optimist, lol.

what on earth are you trying to get at? im arguing with a retard here? but i feel good, just blasted a big doe with me muzzleloader!!!

Post it on a pro-marijuana website. A lot of them may be going to Colorado soon.

Here we go. Marinaded in 10w30. LOL Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This guy could have caused the same amount of mayhem just as easily with a gas can and a lighter... should we have background checks at the gas pump too? Or for buying kitchen knives? If someone wants to do this sort of thing, they'll find a way. Gun control is not the answer. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

It wasnt your fault. I am pretty sure your wife sabotaged you, since she is sick of you being out in the woods and not working on your HoneyDo list.

It isn't mandatory in the southern zone either. See tug the difference is most guys form the sz have no clue about what the differences in hunting the nz and sz are. You do not hear the stories on here about guys shooting 5 times at a deer and not tracking it and finding dead deer all over the place. They just know what we need in the nz because they need it in the sz. We are backwards hillbillies who do not know what we need for ourselves. They are much smarter city people who know it all. Kind of like the govt works. They know what we need more than we do. And most of them that are trying to impose their will, I am betting adhere to the now govt's policies too. Yup I said it.

I am staring at my sleeping 5 year old right now after putting my 4 year old and his 1 year old brother to bed a little while ago. Hitting home? Hell yes I have cried several times today. For the first time in my life I have expressed empathy. In the past I thought I understood it but not until today did I fully understand it. I have kissed and hugged my kids and shed tears all night. I cannot imagine what those kids went through this morning or how their parents are feeling now. My opinion is however is simple. It was not the guns fault. As a society we have stopped raising men and started raising boys. Boys who fell they are entitled to whatever they want. Parents are not allowed to knock good sense into kids these days so we let them rot away playing violent video games where death is measured in a score and posted on Facebook. Mixed feelings will come about but I for one cannot stop thinking about a 5 year old getting shot to death for no reason other than some faggot douche whose parents wanted him to finally grow up and stop being an enabled pussy

You couldnt be more wrong or misguided and are an anti gun advocates wet dream. With the way things are going in our country with government, big business and some of the nuts that are vying for power in America i plan on keeping all my guns and buying lots more ammo and i want my guns to have much in the way of firepower. Our second amendment rights have nothing to do with sportsmans rights and shooting at ducks n bunnies. What happened today is an unthinkable tragedy and makes me sick but i'll thank you to not throw away my rights to protect myself and my family.

absolutely horrible... WTH is wrong with people? very very sad, my heart goes out to those families!

Interesting article Wooly. http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/deer-hunting/articlecontent/1/2012/3191/when-do-deer-drop-their-antlers One thing we do know is that after the rut, a buck’s testosterone levels begin to decrease, and when they drop to a certain level, antlers are shed. Since antlers shed at different times in certain areas and in certain years, something causes the testosterone levels to vary from area to area and winter to winter. Thus, the real question is, what causes the testosterone levels to drop to the required level? We know that testosterone and mating are related, so high numbers of does could lead to late shedding of antlers. Here is how that works: Testosterone in bucks stays high as they chase estrous does. Does will only come into estrus if they have not mated, so when you have large numbers of does, they do not all get bred in the first go-around. When that occurs, hot does will still be popping up later in winter, and rutting bucks will be chasing them. The more does that are not bred, the later the bucks’ antlers drop. And once most does are mated, the bucks’ testosterone levels drop and so do their antlers. One researcher working with captive deer suggested that bucks in poor nutritional condition, or those that are diseased, shed their antlers earlier than they would had they been healthier. Poor nutrition causes testosterone levels to drop and, as mentioned earlier, when testosterone drops, so do antlers. Other researchers have found that older bucks often shed earlier, and suggest that this is due to the physical toll on their bodies paid during the rut. Chasing does, fighting other bucks and being too busy to eat — all reduce bucks’ body condition. Thus, when the rut ends, if they are really run down, their testosterone levels drop faster than normal. One New York study showed that 62 percent of bucks 3½ years old and older dropped their antlers by mid-December, while only 23 percent of younger bucks did. Tied to this poor-nutrition theory is habitat. If habitat is over-browsed, then the body condition of bucks in the area will be poor. Since we know that testosterone levels drop when the bucks are undernourished, then poor habitat might also cause them to drop antlers earlier. In turn, I would suspect that deep early snows, which would limit food intake, also impact the time that antlers drop. In fact, studies show that farther North, where snows are heavier, antlers begin to drop from mid-December to late January. If poor nutrition leads to early shedding, then good nutrition should lead to late drops — right? In fact, studies show that bucks from the Midwest farm country (where nutrition is very good) don’t begin to drop antlers until mid-January or later. Even though these bucks rut hard and their overall body condition is down, their testosterone levels apparently aren’t affected as much as deer from poorer habitats. Thus, they keep their antlers longer. Good nutrition leads to one other factor that causes bucks to keep their antlers later in winter. When doe fawns have good feed, many of them will be bred in their first year. A study done in Iowa showed that almost 75 percent of doe fawns were bred, most during December, again leading to bucks keeping their antlers later than in other parts of the country. This correlation between good feed/habitat and antler shedding has led several researchers to conclude that antler retention is a good measure of the habitat. If the antlers drop later, those bucks live in good habitat. If bucks tend to drop earlier, such as mid-December to mid-January, those bucks live in poor habitat. Earlier I mentioned that when you have lots of does, there might be some later winter breeding, and this keeps testosterone levels higher for longer, leading to late shedding of antlers. However, usually when you have high doe numbers, you get overbrowsed habitat and poor nutrition. As just mentioned, this leads to early shedding. No wonder hunters banter this about every year. So many variables can impact the time when antlers shed. One researcher in Mississippi looked at the casting dates for individual bucks in captivity and found that as long as the environment was the same, individual bucks dropped their antlers about the same date every year. These captive bucks got the same diet all the time, thus their body condition probably stayed the same after the rut, year after year. The fact that they dropped their antlers on the same date each year suggests some kind of innate program within each buck that causes them to drop their antlers. That’s fine for captive bucks, but in the wild, other factors listed above come into play, causing the great variation we see in the timing of antler drop. The question of why some bucks drop early or late is not easy to answer, simply because there are so many things happening in the deer woods that impact antler casting. Will knowing all this impact your hunting success? Of course not, but I hope that I’ve “shed” some light on why there is so much variation in the timing antlers are cast. It’s something to talk about the next time you and your hunting buddies get together.