DEC Unveils New Deer Management Plan

[wolc123]

The reason why a crossbow results in less wounded deer, is because a quick motion (draw) does not have to be made while a deer is in close.  You may think that they dont notice the draw, but deer have excellent periforal vision.  They are very adept at detecting such movement.

That glimpse puts them into a sate of high alert, resulting in "string jump", which puts the deer in a different position when the arrow arrives.  That makes for lots of bad hits and non-recovered deer.  

It should not be hard to understand why a deer is more likely to be in a relaxed state when shot at with a crossbow, than it would be when shot at with a bow.  Is a relaxed deer, or an alert deer more likely to suffer a bad hit ?  This really is not that complicated.

Less wounded deer is the number one reason I prefer the crossbow.  That is followed closely, by less wounded hunters.  Most hunting injuries occur as a result of falls from tree stands.  Most bow hunters feel the need to get up high to hide the draw.  The higher you go, the more severe your injury when you fall.  

The only two valid reasons I can understand why bowhunters dislike the crossbow are selfishness and elitism.  Why else would they not want to see less wounded deer and less injured hunters?

Edited December 3, 2020 by wolc123

[Jeremy K]

11 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

The reason why a crossbow results in less wounded deer, is because a quick motion (draw) does not have to be made while a deer is in close.  You may think that they dont notice the draw, but deer have excellent periforal vision.  They are very adept at detecting such movement.

That glimpse puts them into a sate of high alert, resulting in "string jump", which puts the deer in a different position when the arrow arrives.  That makes for lots of bad hits and non-recovered deer.  

It should not be hard to understand why a deer is more likely to be in a relaxed state when shot at eith a crossbow, than it would be when shot at with a bow.  Is s relaxed deer, or sn alert deer more likely to suffer a bad hit ?  This really is not that complicated.

Less wounded deer I'd thr number one reason I prefer the crossbow.  That is followed closely, by less wounded hunters.  Most hunting injuries occur as a result of falls from tree stands.  Most bow hunters feel the need to get up high to hide the draw.  The higher you go, the more severe your injury when you fall.  

The only two valid reasons o can understand why bowhunters dislike the crossbow are selfishness and elitism.  Why else would they not want to see less wounded deer and less injured hunters?

They are just shitty guns and belong in gun season , has nothing to do with elitism and selfishness ,more to do with common sense. 

[wolc123]

Just now, Jeremy K said:

They are just shitty guns and belong in gun season , has nothing to do with elitism and selfishness ,more to do with common sense. 

The huge advantage they have over guns is thier silence.   That's why they belong in archery season.  Plus they kill the same way (bleeding), and share the same basic components.

[9jNYstarkOH]

19 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

Did a bowhunter steal your dog or something ?

Did a crossbow hunter steal yours? I am fine the way the seasons are now and I do hunt using a crossbow. But man you surely  hate crossbows and the extra people it brings into the woods.

[chrisw]

@wolc123

"That glimpse puts them into a sate of high alert, resulting in "string jump", which puts the deer in a different position when the arrow arrives.  That makes for lots of bad hits and non-recovered deer."

So how does that "glimpse" as you say, compare to the LOUD crossbow which they can absolutely hear? your logic makes no sense. So a deer can't "glimpse" you with a crossbow? Bad hits are MOSTLY the results of a form breakdown, bad angle, poor shot choice, too far, inability to read deer body language etc... Bad shots are just that, BAD SHOTS! Bad shots don't happen when everything goes right, otherwise they're called good shots. Sometimes it's out of our "control" but most times it's a bad decision or fundamental breakdown that causes bad shots. If you're the type of hunter who takes bad angle shots then it doesn't matter what implement is in your hands. Bad hunters are bad hunters, no matter the season, period. And if you know people like we all do, the hunters who lose deer consistently do it in all seasons, year after year.




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[Lawdwaz]

On 12/1/2020 at 10:43 AM, Belo said:

 Take someone who lives in Rochester, NY for example. Not a ton of good public hunting land. So selfishly I'd rather see new land access opened up then a boat launch repaired near Albany.

 

Canadice Hemlock State Forest 6849 acres

High Tor WMA 6800 acres

Honeoye Creek WMA 717 acres

Honeoye Inlet WMA 1977 acres

Conesus Inlet WMA 1120 acres

Harriet Hollister Spencer 1550 acres

Letchworth State Park Shiit Ton of acres

19,000 +/- acres should be pretty good plus much much more for the Rochester area hunter, all within an hours drive. 

[wolc123]

13 minutes ago, chrisw said:

@wolc123

"That glimpse puts them into a sate of high alert, resulting in "string jump", which puts the deer in a different position when the arrow arrives.  That makes for lots of bad hits and non-recovered deer."

So how does that "glimpse" as you say, compare to the LOUD crossbow which they can absolutely hear? your logic makes no sense. So a deer can't "glimpse" you with a crossbow? Bad hits are MOSTLY the results of a form breakdown, bad angle, poor shot choice, too far, inability to read deer body language etc... Bad shots are just that, BAD SHOTS! Bad shots don't happen when everything goes right, otherwise they're called good shots. Sometimes it's out of our "control" but most times it's a bad decision or fundamental breakdown that causes bad shots. If you're the type of hunter who takes bad angle shots then it doesn't matter what implement is in your hands. Bad hunters are bad hunters, no matter the season, period. And if you know people like we all do, the hunters who lose deer consistently do it in all seasons, year after year.




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The difference is, with a bow, there is no way to hide the fast motion required for the draw.   A relaxed deer is less likely to react to the sound of a release, dont you agree ?

The older crossbows mat have been loud, but some of the newer ones have made great strides there.  Even my inexpensive Centetpoint sniper has some effective silencers that make it quieter than my older vertical compound.

You can get away with a loud release when you are shooting at a relaxed deer, while an alert one will jump at a pin drop.

Edited December 3, 2020 by wolc123

[Trial153]

 
I have zero interest in crossbows, but if made legal I'd be the first guy out there with the 06 during archery season and wouldn't apologize to anyone for it.  I get tired listening to bow hunters thinking that they somehow have better ethics and sportsmanship.  They are legends in their own minds and that's about it in my opinion.  

Your so off base that it isnt funny. It had nothing to with ethics or sportsmanship and all to do with providing opportunity. The ample time (opportunity) that is available on a limited resource, meaning our archery season and our deer herd only be maintained by the lack of success that comes from using the weapon, ie bow. The less success the more opportunities that can be afforded to the greater number of people
if you keep adding increasingly effective weapons you will have to limit either the allocation of time or tags. Crossbows like firearms dont belong in an archery season because of efficacy not eitics.

[phantom]

7 hours ago, Belo said:

I don't really buy that either. It takes some dedication to consistently hunt whitetails year after year with the a bow. The guys that think it's easy quickly find that it's not and give up. Those that stick with it are pretty dedicated and committed to doing the right thing, and of course even then the unfortunate happens. To think former gun only hunters picking up a crossbow would lead to less wounding is a little naïve. This hunter doesn't replace the bowhunter he's just in addition too him.

This is true  much more fun to deer hunt with a gun  so many more chances to connect  especially in low  deer density areas  or heavily hunted areas .   The part about crossbows' leading to  less wounding  not sure about that . I can see guys slinging arrows at deer at  as far as they can see just because it has a scope on it . But I can  also see a bow hunter pushing his skill  limits as well  its anyone's guess  which leads to more wounded  deer dec would need  to count how many crossbow bolts they  find in  wounded deer  vs  archery arrows  don't  know  if that's been done by dec or  any  other state yet  would be interesting to see . 

[moog5050]

1 hour ago, Lawdwaz said:

Canadice Hemlock State Forest 6849 acres

High Tor WMA 6800 acres

Honeoye Creek WMA 717 acres

Honeoye Inlet WMA 1977 acres

Conesus Inlet WMA 1120 acres

Harriet Hollister Spencer 1550 acres

Letchworth State Park Shiit Ton of acres

19,000 +/- acres should be pretty good plus much much more for the Rochester area hunter, all within an hours drive. 

Not going to lie, I had no clue we had that much public within an hour of Rochester.  I need to get out more.  

[johnplav]

6 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Not going to lie, I had no clue we had that much public within an hour of Rochester.  I need to get out more.  

Let’s take our rifles and do some exploring next season.  Just don’t expect the bucks that you’re used to seeing! 

[steve863]

7 hours ago, Jeremy K said:

Did a bowhunter steal your dog or something ?

It's quite simple really.  The "something" is that many of you "bowhunters" are so full of $hit.  

[Nomad]

7 hours ago, Trial153 said:

 

 

Your so off base that it isnt funny. It had nothing to with ethics or sportsmanship and all to do with providing opportunity. The ample time (opportunity) that is available on a limited resource, meaning our archery season and our deer herd only be maintained by the lack of success that comes from using the weapon, ie bow. The less success the more opportunities that can be afforded to the greater number of people
if you keep adding increasingly effective weapons you will have to limit either the allocation of time or tags. Crossbows like firearms dont belong in an archery season because of efficacy not eitics.

 

I’ve been hearing the shortened season argument for not allowing crossbows for close to 30 years . Can you name a state where that’s happened ? Hasn’t Ohio had them in all of archery for well over 30 years , with no change in season length? 
 

I don’t follow it as close as you do .

[Trial153]

I’ve been hearing the shortened season argument for not allowing crossbows for close to 30 years . Can you name a state where that’s happened ? Hasn’t Ohio had them in all of archery for well over 30 years , with no change in season length? 
 
I don’t follow it as close as you do .

Ohio kills more deer during their archery seasons then their firearm season. They have 5 day shotgun season and 4 day MZ season.
I tell you what. I will trade the use of crossbows in NY archery season wide, for a 5 day statewide rifle season and 4 day muzzle loader season.
I have feeling that wont go over well with some of this crowd.
A common denominator with wholesale cross bow use during archery seasons is increased harvest rates, due to increased efficacy . For Some resources that non issue, however for others it is. Add those sucess rates and increased the in pressure spread out the whole archery season. Now couple that with two buck tags, then add in one or the longest firearms season in the country ...and what you get is diminished quality hunting experience for everyone, not just archers.

[Jeremy K]

8 hours ago, 9jNYstarkOH said:

Did a crossbow hunter steal yours? I am fine the way the seasons are now and I do hunt using a crossbow. But man you surely  hate crossbows and the extra people it brings into the woods.

I will always bust peoples balls for taking the easy route , we give guys who ride 4 wheelers instead of dirt bikes the same treatment.  

[steve863]

1 hour ago, Trial153 said:

I tell you what. I will trade the use of crossbows in NY archery season wide, for a 5 day statewide rifle season and 4 day muzzle loader season.
 

 

To hell with that deal.  That's the reason I think many of you bowhunters are so full of it.  A rifle hunter should only get 5 days to hunt while bowhunters should get a month and a half and many of you would want even more.  It's not all about bowhunting.

 

 

[Lawdwaz]

41 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

I will always bust peoples balls for taking the easy route , we give guys who ride 4 wheelers instead of dirt bikes the same treatment.  

Fugg it, I’m walking to work today.  

[Jeremy K]

27 minutes ago, Lawdwaz said:

Fugg it, I’m walking to work today.  

That's the spirit

[9jNYstarkOH]

Crossbow take is 10000 in 2 weeks archery take is 50000 in 6 weeks. The fact is the efficiency of the crossbow  really is not causing a great uptick in harvest. When should we make the primitive archery season start June for the guys that really don’t take the easy way out.

Edited December 3, 2020 by 9jNYstarkOH

[9jNYstarkOH]

2 hours ago, Trial153 said:

Ohio kills more deer during their archery seasons then their firearm season. They have 5 day shotgun season and 4 day MZ season.
I tell you what. I will trade the use of crossbows in NY archery season wide, for a 5 day statewide rifle season and 4 day muzzle loader season.
I have feeling that wont go over well with some of this crowd.
A common denominator with wholesale cross bow use during archery seasons is increased harvest rates, due to increased efficacy . For Some resources that non issue, however for others it is. Add those sucess rates and increased the in pressure spread out the whole archery season. Now couple that with two buck tags, then add in one or the longest firearms season in the country ...and what you get is diminished quality hunting experience for everyone, not just archers.

more harvested during gun seasons in 3 year average and more last year if you considered a muzzleloader a gun.here is a harvest summary from Ohio for 2019 

Edited December 3, 2020 by 9jNYstarkOH

[Five Seasons]

11 hours ago, steve863 said:

 

I have zero interest in crossbows, but if made legal I'd be the first guy out there with the 06 during archery season and wouldn't apologize to anyone for it.  I get tired listening to bow hunters thinking that they somehow have better ethics and sportsmanship.  They are legends in their own minds and that's about it in my opinion.  

Do you really think that side by side, per capita the bowhunter (who is often also a gun hunter) doesn't edge out the gun only hunter with their style and approach to hunting? Just on its face if you consider the bow hunter is so obsessed with deer hunting he decided to invest thousands of dollars and countless more hours to do more of something they have a passion for. Take any hobby or sport, the truly dedicated and passionate tend to be the most outspoken and greatest advocates. They know what's at stake and what can be lost from bad apples. Baseballs and steroids are a great analogy.

Sure, no single group is pure and without their rotten apples. But I do think in general, the bowhunter is a more ethical hunter. If someone wanted to study this they could always research the number of DEC violations during regular season vs archery and that'd be a good start. 

[Five Seasons]

10 hours ago, chrisw said:

Bad hits are MOSTLY the results of a form breakdown, bad angle, poor shot choice, too far, inability to read deer body language etc... Bad shots are just that, BAD SHOTS!
 

this exactly. I bet less than 10%, if that of deer that are wounded are due to string jump. Studies show that string jump is really only a factor at 25+ yards and I bet most of the kills on this harvest thread were under that, if not under 20.

[Five Seasons]

10 hours ago, Lawdwaz said:

Canadice Hemlock State Forest 6849 acres 1 hour 1 minute

High Tor WMA 6800 acres 1 hour 10 minutes

Honeoye Creek WMA 717 acres 48 minutes

Honeoye Inlet WMA 1977 acres 59 minutes

Conesus Inlet WMA 1120 acres 50 minutes

Harriet Hollister Spencer 1550 acres 1 hour

Letchworth State Park Shiit Ton of acres 52 minutes

19,000 +/- acres should be pretty good plus much much more for the Rochester area hunter, all within an hours drive. 

Yeah I mean what working man father of 3, doesn't want to get up at 4 on a Saturday or get home past 9pm to hunt pressured land?

I hunted public land for 2 years in Alden and 3 down south in Mississippi. I know all about it. Those drives are only worth it if you have literally no other option.

[BizCT]

I will always bust peoples balls for taking the easy route , we give guys who ride 4 wheelers instead of dirt bikes the same treatment.  

Especially those people who ride snowmobiles instead of cross country skiing


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[Jeremy K]

2 minutes ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

 

Especially those people who ride snowmobiles instead of cross country skiing


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Other way around but you get the idea.