Just A Topic For Discussion

[Steve D]

On 11/18 Grampy Wrote:

grampy    11847

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Posted November 18, 2018

  On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 6:00 PM, Jdubs said:

Too much snow for them?

I don't think so. We've hunted in much more. Got a lot of tracks. Made during darkness. So the deer are here. Just seems like for whatever reason, they flipped the switch to nocturnal?

 

I responded with:

Steve D    1986

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  Posted November 18, 2018

    On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 6:05 PM,

  Happened here last year also. I have a theory on that but it would be a new topic to bring to light probably after the season if I can remember or someone reminds me.

 

Well  I got reminded and thought it might be worthwhile to kick around:

 

I have a theory that probably some if not most will disagree with but thought I would throw it out there for discussion.

 

I can remember when deer would walk through the woods especially during rut with its nose to the ground or looking ahead and never looking up making it relatively easy to stand, draw, and shoot. I also remember a time that right up until gun season it was pretty common to see deer moving during the day time.

 

Over time I have noticed that more and more deer are showing the tendency to look up and that nocturnal activity increases significantly about the second week of November and decreases around spring time. Based on numerous hours and days of personal observations in addition to trail camera activity I believe it is the result of breeding.

 

Deer that don’t look up and move during the day time are more likely to get harvested. Deer “born” with the instinct to look up and possibly a “nocturnal” gene will survive longer, breed, and pass those genes on to their offspring resulting in more nocturnal deer with an instinct to look up.

 

More daytime movement could be contributed to shorter days in the winter and longer days in spring/summer but I honestly believe it is more genetics that has caused the noticeable difference in movement especially during deer season.

 

Thoughts??????

 

[goosifer]

I can buy the first part, that deer seem to look up a lot more than they used to, but why can't looking up be a learned behavior, learned from watching its mother or herd leader?

[Nomad]

For me it’s rare for deer to,look,up ,could be as I’m the only bow hunter around . Last year I took so,many selfies of me on stand with deer in the pic that I pretty much stopped doing it .

Sure when I’m in an open woods and the deer are hanging out for several minutes one will eventually spot me, none took,off this year that I can recall .

[turkeyfeathers]

I know for sure that a mature doe knew to look up this past archery season.  Seconds after I passed on goiter buck she comes walking in. Tree screening me as I drew at 15 yards. Peek a boo around the tree and busted me. Wind was perfect , 17 foot ladder stand. Never got busted before. And like nomad I took a bunch of pictures with deer directly below me    Was. 100% an ole wise girl. 

[rob-c]

I am not sure that it’s a gene, but are some deer smarter than others?  you bet,  it would be naive of hunters to think other wise. I believe it only takes a semi smart deer to catch us hunters moving even a slight bit in a tree stand a few times before they connect the dots. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by rob-c

[phade]

Deer are hardwired to be more active around sunrise and sunset to take advantage of their foraging and survival capabilities. That said, they also have to obey biological requirements to feed/water.

Animals will adapt as necessary but I don't think it's genetic to "look up" - likely more disposition based which could be genetic. The same ones that look up are likely also the ones that allow other deer to enter a field first, bed in the center of other satellite beds, or are willing to sacrifice mating activities for security. 

There's alot of big bucks shot as part of the rut, but there is a notable % of top-end antler scoring bucks who were observed as non-participants in the rut. That likely helps contribute to survival, increased body weight retention, and likely antler growth when all other physiological requirements are addressed.

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by phade

[Just Lucky]

I think it is more of a learned behavior.

I do a bit of still hunting and I know that deer pattern our movement.  I tend to use the same way in and out most the time. However come later in the season I will come from the back direction and catch the deer watching the trails I ussually come from.

I have had alot of success doing it.

[dmandoes]

48 minutes ago, phade said:

, but there is a notable % of top-end antler scoring bucks who were observed as non-participants in the rut.

What do u base that on?  What age class or personal character of the buck?

[rob-c]

26 minutes ago, Just Lucky said:

I think it is more of a learned behavior.

I do a bit of still hunting and I know that deer pattern our movement.  I tend to use the same way in and out most the time. However come later in the season I will come from the back direction and catch the deer watching the trails I ussually come from.

I have had alot of success doing it.

I agree 100% ... also some thing  to consider that I have  had great luck in doing , is going in midday. Have shot numerous deer doing  this.. 

[G-Man]

Most behavior is learned though they may need a reminder like time of year, ext. An example. A permanent stand provided deer for many seasons though sightings eventually slowed and stopped over a period of years. The tracks and trails were still passing by the stand but never. Appeared in daylight. A portable stand set up 30 yards away looking back at permanent stand for filming provided the answer.

Deer were stopping just peaking over the hill at the permanent stand to see if it was occupied if it was they rerouted, next day left permanent stand un occupied and sat in new portable and entire herd stops to check perm stand seeing it safe they proceeded right by old stand in range of new stand.. being able to see is not conducive to good hunting if you can see 100 yards deer can prolly see and detect changes or movements at 200... relearned how and where to hang stands for maximum concealment.

[G-Man]

As to grampys original not seeing deer but seeing tracks, thermal cover becomes vital in snow and cold if you dont have it on your property close by ,deer will still come to feed but do so at night to conserve energy and heat. Its makes sence to move at night to get warm and use muscle movements to keep warm. And lay all day sunning and staying in thermal cover and not move. It is a common thing missing on a lot of properties and it makes deer dissappear when cold as they will relocate miles to good thermal cover..add a food supply next to it and the deer may not be seen in your woods again till spring...

[phade]

48 minutes ago, dmandoes said:

What do u base that on?  What age class or personal character of the buck?

Bucks in highly observed settings. Alscheimer had witnessed this and written about it a ways back, but it's picked up momentum in recent years with increased surveillance capabilities - film, cell cams, stylistic hunting changes. One of the more "public" bucks was Lakosky's Gnarls Barkley in recent years. This has nothing to do with their high management/La-La land differences. The buck was just documented heavily and seen as subordinate to lesser bucks and was witnessed on feed to bed patterns during peak rutting timeframes over multiple years. Chases went on around him and he just ate. And ate. And went back to cover, and repeated that process.

It's also a precursor to bully bucks being talked about more often and how they can impact the caliber of deer land managers/hunters want to see/target. 

It's not an always or nothing proposition, but this component of management is becoming more discussed. Some bucks are more predisposed, whether genetic, environmental, both, or some developing health issue, to not partake in the rut or have a much lower than average participation rate. Doesn't take much to draw a dotted line from lower caloric needs to entering winter in better shape, to earlier onset/better development of antlers. Is it a stone cold lock? Nope. But I think most people would see that it likely gives some advantage over peers worn down. Not much different than comparing an early born 1.5 vs. a late born 1.5.

[XGX7PM]

Perhaps it's not so much a gene that's being passed down.

It is worth considering the deer that are making it through are wise to watching up in the trees. 

Therefore it would make sense that the surviving does are passing this "survival tactic" down to their fawn as the raise them.

Every herd has a different environment, pressure and a thousand other variables that dictate their actions. 

Regardless, many will acknowledge they are looking up now more than ever before.

[Daveboone]

The years that a friend hunted my land, I did observe that they looked up a lot, esp. around his stand. (he never saw one to shoot, despite me knowing darn well deer were around). As a result, I also saw fewer. I am sure he is way more active on stand than I was, and they saw/ heard him. I have never noticed them looking up particularly otherwise.

[dmandoes]

Some great insight here.  Gnarls Barkley is my all time favorite  tv buck, big body, big head, massive, old and funky antlers.  Where i hunt age class is lacking.  I don't think I've ever seen an old buck forgo the rut.  I have read about it happen and not just whitetails.         

[Nytracker]

 A while back I  was busted by a doe at full draw shooting a buck . Didn't see her sneak in .  I got the shot off  killing the.buck . Never thought about the doe again until gun season. She walked in  with twins and peeked  around a  fallen pine tree started blowing and stomping . Wind was in my face away from her . I didn't move .  I checked everything in my camo and gear could not figure  it out . My buddy checked  out things from the ground  didn't see any thing ... I wasn't skylined.  I decided to rest my stand  a few days . . 3 days later I moved to another about 70 yds away . I hear  a deer blowing  . Out pops the doe and her fawns . Walks right by me and up into the field   I know it's the same doe she had a cowlick  on her hip . Damn deer is blowing at my other stand  and I'm not even there.  Following  year it happens again .   The damn biatch has got to go . I  put another stand  60 yards away further in the woods where I can watch. Sure enough opening day gun season   she comes through  gets to my old stand  peeks  around the tree and  snorts and stomps . After 5 minutes of this  she gives up and carefully  picks her way past  the old stand and into  the shooting lane . She looks up at my  old stand stares for a minute and  puts her head down and begins feeding. . Enough of this   I  pick  a spot  and slammed  a 308 through her neck  and that put an end to her game playing.

 

[farmhunter]

deer hunting is different than it used to be I'd agree - and we remember it differently than maybe it really was -"good ole days syndrome". So its a combination of things.   Its definitely fun to point out to young hunters how it used to be!!

 

I think for me- when i was young - NO NONE hunted in tree stands, some of my mentors said I was nuts to do so.  The deer were different they didn't encounter scent around trees and or catch people up in them - not often.

I still see it sometimes.  But - now a days pretty often I'll have an old does pick me out in a tree like I'm flashing neon.

 

As far as a genetic trait - well no - not so much.  It's learned response.  Genetic adaptation is more  like a 50,000-100,000 year thing or more in evolutionary terms. a few generations cannot have an affect on a species genome. 

 

 

 

[G-Man]

Have you thought on this ..every deer you pass on that didnt get a pass in previous years (cause we all wait for the big one now) if it picks up you at all sight, smell, feel or whatever the 6th sense is. You educate ... sitting in a stand all day when wind changes , temps and thermals change you educate more deer you let walk by every hour you are out there.....

People laugh when the find out I hunt very few hours, no all day sits or sits over 3 hours most of the time ,i get my deer ..but I am not educating the other deer either ...

[Steve D]

20 hours ago, XGX7PM said:

It is worth considering the deer that are making it through are wise to watching up in the trees. 

Therefore it would make sense that the surviving does are passing this "survival tactic" down to their fawn as the raise them.

Every herd has a different environment, pressure and a thousand other variables that dictate their actions. 

I agree different environments and other variables in different areas will cause different reactions. If the surviving does (and bucks) are passing this "survival tactic" down to their fawns I would be more likely to think that it is somehow in the breeding.

 I really have doubts that a doe can "teach" a fawn to look up but who knows.

[dbHunterNY]

learned behavior but there might be something genetic that lends itself to a deer's character being more on edge like Phade already said. trait would only help them survive. i think more so it's a learned behavior. anyone here think about how often you've sat in a stand and let deer walk or got busted.  how many times year after year is your stand in the same spot. a doe picks up on this and their buck fawns are taught to do what momma does. they relocate but carry that learned behavior. so despite you've got the perfect setup and don't get busted, they might still be looking because miles down the road they were indirectly taught by a hunter who was less stealth like. more this saves their butt the more they'll rely on it. also the term nocturnal is BS as people seem to understand it. deer don't stop all activity. they've just become aware what areas to avoid during daylight hours. they still run around just as much as they otherwise would. just not near your stand overlooking the food plot you've been hunting day in and day out. same goes for ground blinds. i've brushed some in and had deer bed 10 yards in front of them. same sit other deer came in and as soon as they saw it they got all uneasy through no fault of the setup.

[Steve D]

5 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

i think more so it's a learned behavior. anyone here think about how often you've sat in a stand and let deer walk or got busted.  how many times year after year is your stand in the same spot. a doe picks up on this and their buck fawns are taught to do what momma does.

That may apply to fixed stand hunters but guys like myself that use a climber and move around a lot; I don't think it does. I have witnessed it a number of times sitting in different areas with a climber. Also with a climber you are not always in the same tree each time.

6 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

also the term nocturnal is BS as people seem to understand it. deer don't stop all activity. they've just become aware what areas to avoid during daylight hours.

My trail cams say different. After the second week or so in November 95% of the movement is at night with cams located in the same location that were catching day time pictures in prior weeks.

If something is nocturnal, it belongs to or is active at night. ... The adjective nocturnal comes from the Late Latin nocturnalis, which means “belonging to the night."

I am sure every area is different but that seems to be the trend here.

[Doc]

"Looking up":

"A whitetail’s eyes are found on the sides of its head, enabling the deer to have a field of view (FOV) of about 310 degrees. This means a deer’s blind spot is only about 50 degrees — less than a third the size of our own. In comparison, humans with two healthy eyes have a field of view of 180 degrees."

Considering this amazing field of view that the deer has, not much gets missed, even those things above. One hint that something doesn't look right (even in their peripheral vision) and their first reaction is to point their head directly at whatever it is, wherever it is. That gives the impression that the deer just randomly is walking around looking up. I think that in reality, something moved that got his attention.

"Nocturnal changes":

As far as daytime or night-time movements, instinct for safety is number one with deer, but it can be over-ridden by other needs. Hunger is a prime alternative. In the spring the deer are stressed out the most in our northern climate deer. Food is scarce. Calorie needs are severe, fat reserves are depleted, and time foraging is required, even daytime. So, in springtime we not only have more daytime movement, but they also frequent places that they normally would not venture into (my yard.....lol). Nutritional survival becomes their primary driver. At that point it becomes "whatever it takes to survive" and if that means full daylight exposure, then that's what they do.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Doc

[dbHunterNY]

12 hours ago, Steve D said:

That may apply to fixed stand hunters but guys like myself that use a climber and move around a lot; I don't think it does. I have witnessed it a number of times sitting in different areas with a climber. Also with a climber you are not always in the same tree each time.

My trail cams say different. After the second week or so in November 95% of the movement is at night with cams located in the same location that were catching day time pictures in prior weeks.

If something is nocturnal, it belongs to or is active at night. ... The adjective nocturnal comes from the Late Latin nocturnalis, which means “belonging to the night."

I am sure every area is different but that seems to be the trend here.

i wasn't talking about them figuring out any particular stand location, despite they will.  if they've seen what's perceived as danger above in the trees before they'll start looking in the trees for anything out of place.  i hunt from a climber for the reason you just said in conjunction with not worrying about someone else also hunting in my stand adding to tipping the deer off to activity in it.

year after year the local deer herd keeps to a general pattern. deer shift their ranges for a lot of reasons. mostly they know it's around that time of the year and relocate to areas they associate with safety or better cover. might not be your case but just getting things ready like checking stand locations and trail cameras can seem the same as hunting pressure to a deer. they care about it much less prior to hard antler. also deer travel and don't just come across traces of you being where you otherwise haven't been all year but every joe hunter in within it's range of a likely more than a square mile.  during the 2nd week or so in November there's still breeding going on and they still need food and water. the deer don't just wait until dark. they do so in patches of cover that sees less people pressure and sometimes their range shifts all together.  for example a property a buck's movement was centered around he might be on the outskirts of his new range and he might only be show up once or twice all season. yet a wood lot or swamp a couple miles away will have day time activity most days of the week and be the center of his new temporary range. I've patterned older bucks and a small number of recognizable doe that did this sort of thing and that's just what i think. year after year multiple occasions that shift happens within a day or two, regardless of exact people activities too.

[Hunter007]

I guess this  is different in different areas but my father use to tell me storys about his cousin who had his own large plot of land and would often stalk up and shoot deer in there bedding area with a ruger 44 mag redhalk ,  after many years he just got bored with it , sold the land to  hunt public said it was just to easy and he didn't really like deer meat that much anyway and  had enough of paying property tax . I guess it was a area that was not heavily  pressured. 

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Storm914